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semiquaver 4 hours ago [-]
> because apparently what we have to offer is worth spending a ton of cycles to calculate the Anubis challenge.
This statement holds the core misapprehension behind Anubis. It’s not a ton of cycles. There is no difficulty setting that would be inconvenient for bots but usable for humans on mobile devices.
I noticed the other day that lists.ffmpeg.org had moved to Anubis difficulty level 6, which takes ~180sec for my iPhone 17 to solve at ~100KH/s, making the site unusable. So I spent ~10 minutes vibe coding a safari extension with a native bridge to an optimized C kernel using ARM SHA256H* instructions that can do 200+ MH/s on the same device. This solves Anubis difficulty level 6 in a handful of milliseconds.
Given the numbers and capabilities involved (a single $5K ASIC miner yields 200TH/s, a million times more hash rate than my optimized kernel running on an iPhone), I don’t see how proof of work could possibly be a sustainable strategy to keep bots out without ruining human user experience. It’s an arms race that can’t be won.
Edit: I encourage you to try this yourself. Here's a sample prompt that ought to one-shot the task:
> Build an iOS Safari Web Extension that accelerates Anubis proof-of-work using a native C ARM64 SHA-256 kernel. Precompute the invariant 128-byte challenge prefix, search fixed-width decimal nonces with ARM SHA-2 intrinsics and two worker threads, and target difficulty-6 solves under one second. Relay challenges from a Safari content script through the background service worker to native code, then submit the valid nonce/hash through Anubis’s normal pass-challenge endpoint. Include a deterministic benchmark app, correctness tests against CryptoKit, bounded execution, and fallback to Anubis’s stock solver.
wongarsu 4 hours ago [-]
Isn't the issue here the three order of magnitude difference between the (presumably optimized) JS implementation and the optimized C kernel on your browser? If the two stay within an order of magnitude of each other Anubis is a perfectly viable and scalable solution. Bots want to open many orders of magnitude more pages than a normal user, so the resource investment for each single page matters a lot more to them
For reference, the challenge on lists.ffmpeg.org takes 8 seconds on Firefox on my three year old laptop CPU that has worse benchmark scores than the iPhone 17 (tbf, the laptop also cost less than an iPhone 17). 8 seconds doesn't run against thermal limitations, so I really don't see why Safari on a modern iPhone should be so slow at this
semiquaver 4 hours ago [-]
> I really don't see why Safari on a modern iPhone should be so slow at this
me neither, but I don't think it changes the argument. There's always going to be someone on a low-end device. Your adversaries already have superhuman coding ability and infinite patience. Why would you expect the long-term advantage to be with the defenders?
paytonjjones 3 hours ago [-]
In this case, because there's a vastly more efficient economic path for the adversaries (cloning).
They're not trying to engage in an arms race, they're trying to channel a racing river into its natural course.
pbronez 2 hours ago [-]
It’s more economical at a compute level, but not at the developer level. The moment you start customizing your crawler to use protocol X for site Y your scale story collapses.
paytonjjones 2 hours ago [-]
It's a good point, but in practice it depends on how easy those customizations are to implement / maintain, and how much money and effort you save. At some point the compute cost can disrupt even the nicest scale story.
I think the path forward is that websites offer one path for humans, and another for scrapers. But the huge catch is the path for scrapers must be _genuinely_ and _reliably_ the more economical and scalable path (either through something like PoW arms races, or through fear of litigation). Otherwise they will continue to ignore instructions and intrude on the human path.
inigyou 1 hours ago [-]
Why aren't we litigating against scrapers, anyway? DDoS is a felony.
ekidd 34 minutes ago [-]
Largely because they're residential botnets in places like Brazil (a real example from one of my sites that was crawled to near-destruction). Someone could probably do something about this, but it's out of reach for individual site owners.
inigyou 26 minutes ago [-]
If you block Brazil, they'll find an alternative, maybe then you can sue them.
Aurornis 3 hours ago [-]
> Bots want to open many orders of magnitude more pages than a normal user, so the resource investment for each single page matters a lot more to them
Depending on the configuration, Anubis will supply a token after the challenge that bypasses the challenge for a time.
So any scraper that retains basic cookies will be able to bypass the challenge for a number of page views.
A user who needs to load a single page and a bot that wants to scrape a number of pages may pay the same cost.
The amortized per-view cost is highest for the real user.
rplnt 43 minutes ago [-]
Now you have a session of sorts and can limit the requests for that client, right? They can be fast, just limited in volume - regular user isn't punished.
DenisM 32 minutes ago [-]
Memory-hard hash functions maybe? Like, you must dedicate 4gb of ram to compute the function. Not a problem for a one-off, but is a problem when reading lots of pages at once.
Or… the site will serve a random seed and the device must compute 4gb of pseudo-random data, then supply a value at a random server-demanded offset.
inventor7777 2 hours ago [-]
My iPad Pro M2 takes around 30 seconds to solve it in Safari, while my Mac Studio solves it in about 3 seconds using 449% logical CPUs. It really makes no sense. Interesting how much slower it is than native - could it be protections against things such as crypto mining?
karlgkk 1 hours ago [-]
> I don’t see how proof of work could possibly be a sustainable strategy to keep bots out without ruining human user experience. It’s an arms race that can’t be won.
You yourself describe the solution.
Extensions or browser integrations of the Anubis task.
dpark 60 minutes ago [-]
He didn’t describe a solution. He described a (crappy) workaround for humans. But the fact is that this cannot and will not stop bots. The people running bots can do the same, even faster.
Self-Perfection 4 hours ago [-]
The better solution would be fix Anubis and optimise its calculations on iPhone. Maybe it needs WebAssembly hashing implementation instead of JS?
But it would just make Anubis suck a little bit less
Anubis "protection" model is wrong/broken on several levels. I suppose it does not even have ability to bypass hashing screen when server load is low.
bayindirh 1 hours ago [-]
> I suppose it does not even have ability to bypass hashing screen when server load is low.
Anubis is not a load optimizer. It's sole purpose is to deny the bots you don't want on your site.
It's on the same category as Iocaine and Go-Away, even if what they do is different in some cases.
radlad 4 hours ago [-]
I'm reminded of LUKS Argon2 implementation, which is much slower than userspace. Therefore a sufficiently difficult challenge that may take less than a second in userspace Linux can take 20 or more seconds at boot.
jwilk 3 hours ago [-]
Huh? Are you saying there's an Argon2 implementation in the kernel?
minimaltom 2 hours ago [-]
Its not in the kernel but in the userspace tool that goes from password to key (the key is handed to the kernel).
But the scraper is making way more requests and is paying for all that compute.
tptacek 4 hours ago [-]
This is the basic misconception behind the Anubis design. In an anti-spam system, there's a user/abuser reward asymmetry. Users make single requests and get some constant reward V. Abusers make millions of requests and also get some constant reward V. Proof-of-work exploits the asymmetry: costs are, by a factor of ~millions, disproportionately imposed on abusers.
That's exactly not what happens with scrapers. Scrapers make millions of requests, yes. But each one of those requests produces an average (token-denominated) reward V'. There's no asymmetry at all: you're just adding a fixed cost to each reward, for both users and abusers.
That's before you even get to questions like "does the system actually work, or does a single solve get practically unbounded rewards".
progval 3 hours ago [-]
> There's no asymmetry at all: you're just adding a fixed cost to each reward, for both users and abusers.
There is: users solve the PoW once, scrappers solve it every time they rotate IP addresses. Some of them change their IP address on every request, so they keep solving the PoW over and over.
sunoforbrazilia 18 minutes ago [-]
"scrappers" opinion discarded
graemep 4 hours ago [-]
I wonder whether what Anubis is doing might be blocking agents that do not run JS or that have a timeout (or humans who give up as I just did)
tptacek 3 hours ago [-]
I suspect that's most of the value, and that the deterrent is about software construction and not about the proof-of-work, which I've been saying for the last year is a productive direction for Anubis to head towards. Instead, it's just sort of tormenting normal people, as a kind of performance of anger about AI.
Which: I get! If it's your site, perform all the anger you want.
cyberax 1 hours ago [-]
I have a small personal site with an exposed Git repository. I'm getting crawled from about 100000 residential IPs from several ASNs (mostly in Brazil). Each crawler makes a couple of requests per minute.
Anubis doesn't really help against this.
DarmokTanagra 2 hours ago [-]
not if its running on someone else's device
semiquaver 4 hours ago [-]
no, a single solve returns a token which entitles the scraper to access the site as much as it wants for one week.
NobodyNada 4 hours ago [-]
The token should only be valid for one IP, so the scraper has to keep solving challenges if it rotates IPs.
semiquaver 4 hours ago [-]
OK, but that doesn't change anything. You have a large pool of IPs, each of which only needs to expend a handful of extra milliseconds of work to get unlimited access to the protected resource.
Even if you had to solve a L6 challenge for every request it's faster than the total RTT time of most servers. In other words not a meaningful barrier. And L6 is already a level which severely interferes with human usage of a site.
a $5000 ASIC-based device can hash SHA256 at 200TH/s or more.
inigyou 2 hours ago [-]
The way they're internally implemented doesn't allow pinning an IP. They buy a rotating proxy service from a vendor, and don't get to choose their source IP.
dspillett 2 hours ago [-]
> In other words not a meaningful barrier.
And yet many report it works, at least for now, and the excess load due to scraping activity falls precipitously when Anubis or similar solutions are used. Maybe once this sort of challenge is used almost everywhere we'll see concerted attempts to get around it, but for now it is easier for them to just move on to another target.
> a $5000 ASIC-based device can hash SHA256 at 200TH/s or more
Peanuts for the big players, but many (almost all?) running smaller scale scraping operations are going to find $5000 rather prohibitive, and they are unlikely to be able to integrate it as they are probably running a “stock” scraper that they didn't write themselves.
LatticeAnimal 3 hours ago [-]
Some of the asymmetry might be regained if anubis had thousands of variations of PoW algorithms, each different enough that they must be solved independently.
I wonder if AI might be able to come up with new PoW algorithms in a nightly CI job so every day is a different puzzle...
inigyou 2 hours ago [-]
You can do this on yours. Just have the client and server add an extra "2" after the challenge key or something. A different client which extracts the challenge key and does its own processing will only generate invalid responses.
CursedSilicon 2 hours ago [-]
...That sounds like entropy? As in, the thing computers are bad at (truly random numbers) and /dev/urandom in your kernel already spits out an approximation of?
rzmmm 4 hours ago [-]
It does work, at least in my experience. The challenge may be cheap for your n-of-1 but keep in mind the scraper bots are crawling number of domains with very high concurrency.
inigyou 2 hours ago [-]
And without control of their source IP addresses. They use a "rotating proxy" meta-proxy which sends each request through a different proxy, which invalidates the Anubis response and triggers a new challenge.
wbl 1 hours ago [-]
Real attackers fuck. If they have IP address control issues they will fix them. The bots being stopped are the silly ones.
applfanboysbgon 39 minutes ago [-]
Okay. That's good enough. The problem people using Anubis have is not "I'm being targeted for a DDoS" and is actually "my site is being incidentally DDoS'd because scrapers are DDoSing the entire internet". A solution to the latter is what people need. Every single one of these threads comes up with hypotheticals about how useless Anubis is and how it can't possibly work and yet it does work for the real-world problem that real-world webmasters are dealing with.
Terr_ 8 minutes ago [-]
Right: It's a threat-modeling mistake to start lumping different groups with different goals and different operational constraints together.
Sure, the cheap lock I added to the outside shed's door-latch is terrible and can be shimmed open in two seconds with a bit of flat metal... but the important thing right now is that it keeps the raccoons out.
TZubiri 4 hours ago [-]
I thought we learned this with Litecoin, it works only as a novelty factor, nothing fundamental.
When the reward to abuse crosses a certain threshold, a determined party will come along and completely dominate it.
lxgr 4 hours ago [-]
I mean, it works just fine for PoW-based cryptocurrencies (with "why are we doing this if there are much better solutions to the same problem" values of "fine") because there the game theory works out, which is "solve hashes to gain a probabilistic lottery ticket for a shared prize pool" having a higher EV than "solve hashes for the probabilistic chance of double spending some money, but if you don't pull it off you gain zero".
Anubis is just "solve hashes to get access to a valuable resources", and if the resource is at least valuable to whoever you're trying to deter as it is to legitimate users, you're not deterring anyone (and by extension, if it's more valuable to them, you're deterring your legitimate users instead).
TZubiri 53 minutes ago [-]
I mention litecoin specifically, it was developed right after BTC ASICS started dominating, and the LTC goal was for hardness to reward consumer hardware rather than ASICS, it was briefly successful until LTC ASICS were developed.
robotmay 3 hours ago [-]
I've spent the last few days adding traps to one of my websites, ironically using LLMs of course, and I've been having quite a lot of fun doing it.
Instead of the proof-of-work system of Anubis, I've gone down the iocaine route but implemented it in my application itself, as it's built in Elixir and causing problems for scrapers is really fun when it takes almost no server resources.
Currently I trick bad scrapers into a fake infinite black hole path with the promise of tasty data, then serve images to them one byte at a time over 15 minutes (after sending the header quickly), bloat the responses to cost them tokens, and randomly return AI generated images of sexy toasters. I have an admin dashboard with a little leaderboard for which ones get the most stuffed, and it keeps my heart warm on these wet autumn evenings.
embedding-shape 3 hours ago [-]
> I have an admin dashboard with a little leaderboard for which ones get the most stuffed
You can't tease us like that without showing screenshots.
worldsavior 2 minutes ago [-]
NGL, that's something a crawler owner would say.
robotmay 51 minutes ago [-]
Haha here's a few snippets (will auto expire in a week, future readers):
I only just added the token wasting measure so I'm really curious to see what happens if another bot loads over 400 pages.
altairprime 16 minutes ago [-]
(FYI, these are comically distorted on mobile.)
jopsen 3 hours ago [-]
Probably they must be deduplicating text they've seen before.
The only punishment would be unique text that trains their models to be degenerate. And even then you'd probably have to serve across many domains.
dspillett 1 hours ago [-]
One thing I've thought of trying is, if I ever get around to putting things back online, loading the pages with altered versions of themselves in a manner that human users are unlikely to see (though they could if they wanted to) but scrapers are unlikely to ignore (because they look enough like something users might see, perhaps by opening a <detail> tag).
The altered versions would be the page or paragraphs of it, with sentences and words swapped arbitrarily so that training on the data adds as many iffy token sequences as correct ones.
robotmay 48 minutes ago [-]
Thankfully this is my photography website so what they're mostly after is images, which they have to request. I'm also intercepting all my legit images once the bot is flagged, which will no doubt have unintended consequences but I'll find out at some point I guess.
inventor7777 2 hours ago [-]
You can't tease us with that and not share any information! ;-)
robotmay 46 minutes ago [-]
I've added a few screenshots above!
Elixir's really fun to do this in because the BEAM will let you have hundreds of thousands of processes sat around doing nothing quite happily, so slow IO and such is something it's weirdly well-suited to.
This is on my photography site so I'm less fussed about them harvesting my writing, and more about causing problems for image harvesters. I'm sure they'll get some stuff anyway but at least one bot got stuck in a 400 page hellhole earlier today so I'm overall very pleased :D
mlaretallack 2 hours ago [-]
I hate to ask but what's a "sexy toasters."
robotmay 1 hours ago [-]
Gemini's surprisingly bad at it but so far I have some voluptuous curvy toasters, toasters in the shape of a butt, and robot girls with toasters for tits. I have a Gemini subscription for the month after mistakenly thinking I'd get cheap Opencode usage through it, so gotta use it for something.
virgoerns 2 hours ago [-]
I also run a public cgit instance and get over 1M hits every day, although my pet projects are nowhere near the size or impact of kernel. I had to block (via nginx conf) cgit endpoints for diffs, blame, snapshots and historical commits, because nothing else works. Now they return 402 (payment required). I consider this my total defeat and it's killing me inside, but it is what it is.
inigyou 1 hours ago [-]
You could also publish a list of IP addresses.
mzajc 51 minutes ago [-]
As the article describes, it doesn't help, because the traffic originates from millions of unique residential IPs across hundreds of ASNs and countries.
inigyou 27 minutes ago [-]
So?
tptacek 5 hours ago [-]
Tavis Ormandy called this, about Anubis, almost exactly a year ago:
It never really cohered as a solution. High-powered scrapers are better equipped to handle proof-of-work challenges than end users. Proof of work makes sense for a password hash, where any one guess at a password provides zero marginal utility. But every request from a scraper is productive to the scraper.
harshreality 3 hours ago [-]
If you want to argue that there's excessive enthusiasm about anubis, which is neither a permanent solution nor a solution against all bots run for all purposes (some bot authors are cleverer than others, and you don't have to block everything, just enough to reduce resource use to tolerable levels)... fine.
However, the refrain from naysayers isn't that there's too much enthusiasm. It's that anubis doesn't make sense as a theoretical barrier against bots. Who cares as long as it works empirically, even briefly? Are you suggesting people let their sites continue to be degraded or unusable until they find a better solution, even though PoW challenges can improve the situation today?
Not everyone has the luxury of writing their own web app designed to handle massive bot traffic at minimal cost, gutting functionality to meet that requirement if necessary.
I noticed a couple of weeks ago that 1-2 orders of magnitude more bots were getting past anubis challenges. However, it would be incorrect to conclude that it's doing nothing and now worthless aside from heating up visitors' cpus. If I turn it off, I see >2x bots.
The next salvo in the war of attrition will probably be when anubis switches to wasm hashx, which the author suggested, in previous HN threads, is on the roadmap.
If bots quickly adapt (Claude vibe-coded JIT wasm-to-native-transpiler for hashx challenge algorithms?), that may be the end of anubis and efforts like it. If they don't, I expect more HN threads with people complaining that such compiler efforts are possible and therefore PoW-gated sites are doing it wrong... even if those sites stay usable.
tptacek 3 hours ago [-]
I'm not moralizing. The sites running Anubis are owned by people who like Anubis and are fully within their rights to run Anubis. I don't care how enthusiastic they are about it. It's their call.
I'm just saying, it's bad computer science.
harshreality 3 hours ago [-]
You're arguing worst-case, and people running anubis are saying it dramatically helps in their experience, because they're not getting too many of the sorts of bots that people like you and Tavis (correctly) argue are theoretically possible. So the argument that it's "bad CS" falls flat.
A better, perhaps the best, argument is that a worse bot mix might appear tomorrow, so anubis should be used as a runway for a better solution, and not as a solution in itself. If only everyone with a website had the desire (or AI tokens) to implement their own better solution. In some cases even desire or a lot of tokens isn't enough. I mean, you think kernel.org folks haven't put some serious thought into it? And yet, as HN argues about it, there's kernel.org running anubis at difficulty 5.
tptacek 3 hours ago [-]
I don't know what you mean by "the best argument". My entire argument is that it's bad CS. I'm not trying to convince people not to run Anubis. If anything, I'm trying to convince Anubis to use better computer science. That would make more people run it! But even that's just a faint subsidiary goal; the real goal, as someone who works in this field and has designed proof-of-work antiabuse systems before, is just to add clarity about what can and can't work and why.
harshreality 3 hours ago [-]
I too would love anubis to use better CS, if available. Perhaps you have some ideas for @xena, instead of just letting anubis continue on the trajectory of iterating its PoW approach?
inigyou 60 minutes ago [-]
Which part of computer science is about getting DDoSed by billionaires who are above the law?
TeMPOraL 41 minutes ago [-]
Where on Earth do people get the belief that:
- It's the SOTA companies doing it?
- Scrapers are doing it for training data?
Those are two assumptions I see in posts and threads around Anubis, that are taken at faith, and never once substantiated.
inigyou 27 minutes ago [-]
What's your alternative hypothesis?
nneonneo 5 hours ago [-]
I disagree. The kernel finds it effective - 66% of scrapers are turned away directly.
The scraper problem now is fleets of residential proxy devices - often things like smart TVs, phones, and browsers with some “proxy SDK” installed as part of an app’s monetization scheme. They make a couple of requests to a site - just enough to fly under the radar - and move on to a different site.
If each new site they hit forces them to solve a proof-of-work, that’s a meaningful dent in their scraping performance. Many of these boxes may not even have the spare CPU power to efficiently solve so many proofs of work - and anything that makes an owner notice their device is running slow is something that could meaningfully impede adoption of these SDKs, or force the operators to choose between minimizing performance impact or scraping more sites.
tptacek 5 hours ago [-]
It's weird to believe data center based, Internet-scale scraping operations will be less able to allocate compute to proof-of-work challenges than individual users. This is design problem with things like Anubis: proof-of-work depends on a cost asymmetry between attacker and defender. But in scraping, both legitimate users and scrapers get the same value out of a transaction.
yorwba 31 minutes ago [-]
For PoW to work, you don't need scrapers to have less compute than users, you only need their compute advantage to be less than the load-generation advantage they would otherwise have. And unlike legitimate users, scrapers aren't carefully picking the URLs they request, so the average value they get out of it is probably rather low. They have to make it up in volume.
4 hours ago [-]
Y_Y 5 hours ago [-]
The implication here is that the proxy fridge forwards the Anubis challenge to a dedicated rig controlled by the scraper who efficiently solves it and returns the answer.
wongarsu 3 hours ago [-]
That's still a notable step up in completely and resource investment for the crawler
See also how captchas continued being effective for years despite services like anti-captcha offering to solve them for you for a fifth of a cent each by farming the work out to India. It took advances in AI that made it viable to reliably solve them on-device to bring the end of the captcha
inigyou 59 minutes ago [-]
That's not a step up, that is how they work by default.
lxgr 4 hours ago [-]
Why would they even run a browser engine on the devices they're hosted on?
All they need to do is forward traffic and launder its IP origin. They don't even need to be able to (and would actually be well advised not to) decrypt TLS streams.
oasisbob 3 hours ago [-]
> Many of these boxes may not even have the spare CPU power ...
I don't think that's generally how these networks use residential exit proxies. There are at least a dozen well-developed frameworks out there for decoupling the crawler from the network exit point.
Most res proxy exits are just slinging bytes for clients using SOCKS, or another tunneling protocol.
If nothing else, a modern scraper will want better control over their TLS fingerprints, and you can't get that if you're depending on the on-device TLS libraries alone.
lxgr 4 hours ago [-]
> 66% of scrapers are turned away directly.
Until they discover this neat trick [1] and solve challenges orders of magnitudes more efficiently than legitimate users.
The game theory of Anubis is not sound. It makes fundamentally less sense than Captchas, and even those have been on the way out for a while.
Until you actually do the math and realize that it is not meaningful at all. It’s equivalent to the blogs that have a custom “bot protector” that asks you “what’s 2+2” every time you submit a comment. It might work temporarily as an inconvenience, but nothing more.
graemep 4 hours ago [-]
How s that measured? How do you count human users who have been turned away?
jdnier 5 hours ago [-]
I really enjoyed the writing style in this article.
And the bot progression from "alter user agent" to "change IP addresses" to providers having to ban whole subnets, whole ASNs, and realizing "proxy SDK monetization" is a thing mirrors threat actor progression from the time before LLMs.
atq2119 3 hours ago [-]
It feels like this progression of increasingly drastic measures to circumvent the protections of a computer system ought to be enough to establish criminal intent and get some of the people running those crawlers into prison.
inigyou 59 minutes ago [-]
It does. It's literally a felony but for some reason not a single person has pressed charges.
TZubiri 4 hours ago [-]
It goes beyond mirrors, it's just something criminals have been doing since forever, to abuse all websites.
Demiurge 5 hours ago [-]
I maintain a formerly popular gaming website, and it used to have hundreds of legitimate requests per second. The load would be especially high during popular event times. So, it’s always been running on a dedicated server.
It also has an “online users” counter, which attempted to count real user sessions of unauthenticated user which still maintained a session, which lets them comment, or modify certain filter and display options. It never counted the Google bot.
Over the last few years this counter went from 100-200 users online to thousands. I have been very hands-off with it for many years, doing minor upgrades and backups. However, the site also has gotten quite slow, these sessions were obviously impacting it. So, I finally investigated these crawlers, and yes, it turns out it’s an insane amount of traffic that is entirely artificial, the site has just a handful of real users, and thousands of these crawling sessions that actually try to do everything they can, click every button. It doesn’t help that sort and search were implemented using GET links.
I fixed the counter to exclude the crawlers, but I have a bit of a dilemma. I don’t want to stop the bots from updating their knowledge based on all the content.
The best solution I could find is the new CloudFlare feature where they might charge the crawlers for every request, or otherwise block them. I think that’s a fantastic idea for the internet, at large. I signed up for the beta access, but haven’t heard from them again. I do think it’s unfortunate that this requires CloudFlare and the middleman.
Overall, it seems like the LLM are really straining the internet economy, the openness of it. Email spam used to be the worst, but the organized trillionaire labs sucking up the entire internet is going to break something if we don’t preempt them better.
It’s too bad the copyright and public internet systems are not acting quick enough. And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
andai 5 hours ago [-]
> And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
I would promote this idea to all of my competitors. Nah mate, you don't have to ask her out right now. You can wait until next week ;)
Anyway, silver linings, looks like we're finally going to get widely adopted infra for microtransactions.
Are the AI companies worried about anything but their valuations?
I don’t care about their valuations, but I do care about the risks that they are creating for the economy, society, and the technological advancement, at large.
Micro transactions [in this case] are a great idea, these crawlers need to be taxed and made to pay for the unaccounted external costs. Furthermore, we need to fund any risk mitigations, security coordination, and other safety work. If these things are not imposed on the market, the most ruthless player will create the biggest mess they can get away with.
I don’t see a better way to do this, right now, than to allow Strips, or CF, to create some way to charge the crawlers. Imagine I have some really expensive content, I can put it behind the paywall, or subscription model, but that’s very specific to the human consumer. What if I do want to search engine or content aggregator to consume some of the content? It would be quite hard for me to sign an exclusive agreement with OpenAI, like what Reddit or NYT are doing. It might be quite beneficial to create some infrastructure to let bots automatically to pay for access. It might even be crypto based, I don’t think it really matters. It just has to be easy for me to integrate it, and the bots need to find it easy to use.
If we all start doing this, I think this could be of benefit to all content creators, such as musicians, movie makers, game developers, and even independent journalists.
We used to pay for software and things, but what has happened? Walled gardens and production monopolies are taking over. This has largely reduced the quality of all the content we consume.
inigyou 57 minutes ago [-]
[to prove you are not a crawler and read this comment, please deposit $2.00]
Demiurge 25 minutes ago [-]
I think that to prove I am not a crawler I probably just need to supply a Safari user agent string. The crawlers on my sites actually self identify for the most part. The malicious ones are banned when they try to post spam.
Anyway, what’s wrong with making 2 cents? :)
persolb 2 hours ago [-]
Maybe won’t work for your site; I’ve been leaving flat files open, putting anything that needs processing (like search and login) behind Anubis.
pdonis 3 hours ago [-]
> I don’t want to stop the bots from updating their knowledge based on all the content.
Why not? At this point, any attempt to try to meet the bots halfway is doomed.
Demiurge 3 hours ago [-]
Because I also use AI, and I actually want the content from the site to show up for me, as well as other AI users.
More over, I actually pay for three different AI subscriptions, and use them a lot. I also think it’s fair that I pay for their services. I just want them to also pay for what they use.
mbirth 3 hours ago [-]
If these were actual legitimate bots using a known user-agent and coming from the same subnet so you could throttle their requests it would be fine.
But I’m seeing requests coming in from random IP addresses from all over the world using randomised user-agents. But somehow these are trying URLs in sequential order. A while ago this would be classed as a DDoS cyber attack.
nunez 3 hours ago [-]
HoustonArchitecture.com, a site that posts about new development projects in the Houston area, had the exact same thing happen to them. (They also got hacked; don't remember the details.) They now pay the Cloudflare tax.
anal_reactor 4 hours ago [-]
> Overall, it seems like the LLM are really straining the internet economy, the openness of it
I feel like it's the same issue that public resources are facing.
Step 1: public resource is freely available
Step 2: asshole shows up, drains the resource completely just because they can
Step 3: either resource is taken away, or it has massive security behind it
inigyou 56 minutes ago [-]
Alternative step 3: arrest the asshole.
We don't even need a new law. What they're doing is already a felony, and there's a process already in place to go to a court and request unmasking of 10000 IP addresses.
iririririr 4 hours ago [-]
do not fall for cloudflare marketing.
they have one of the worst bot detection in the industry. but because everyone uses them, their huge false positive numbers won't show up anywhere.
timpera 4 hours ago [-]
Cloudflare is also great at playing both sides, and they're trying pretty hard to push for pay-to-crawl because they'll probably get a 30% cut along the way.
Demiurge 3 hours ago [-]
That’s definitely pretty annoying, it’s almost like the walled gardens scenario. I wish this could be more democratized.
TZubiri 4 hours ago [-]
There's a winner takes all (monopoly) dynamic, if everyone uses your product, you can share the ip banlists between customers.
realusername 3 hours ago [-]
For bots, usually a monopoly just paints a bigger target on your back than custom low scale prevention methods.
And Cloudflare is no exception, the "hello world" of bots is Cloudflare bypass.
1oooqooq 3 hours ago [-]
See, this is you falling for their marketing.
It makes sense doesn't it? If you own all the pipes, you can effectively block bad actors. But in reality what they do is to just block everyone who blocks advertising tracking and profiling tech (such as canvas fingerprint etc)... and because all vendors use cf, they all block those same clients, and they think there's some winner takes all magic happening with finely tuned blocklists. Don't fall for the marketing!
Try it yourself. Block those fingerprinting tech and try to access their own user forum. you get blocked. Now allow fingerprinting (even if emulated in a headless chrome!) and access by the most toxic vpn you can think off, access granted.
All cloudflare does is act like a gatekeep for monetizable-by-creepy-advertising-networks traffic, not bots. If the bots pay the small headless chrome tax, you get bombarded with their requests just fine.
TZubiri 56 minutes ago [-]
If I recall by browsing the docs, there's a lot of fine grained client control over the blocking params. Which makes sense since the main product of cf is bot blocking.
So you can definitely block by IP, by fingerprint, both or neither
Demiurge 3 hours ago [-]
What would you suggest as an alternative? Block the bots yourself ?
inigyou 54 minutes ago [-]
Yes. Any number of methods work. From requiring a cookie to requiring CSS to be loaded to a PoW to a JavaScript redirect. Most scraper bots are really dumb. If you do it cookie based, you can also put a poison link on every page that invalidates their cookie and starts returning poison on every page after that, so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Demiurge 5 minutes ago [-]
I have tried cookie based sessions and I have tried multiple things. I have been battling DDOS and script kiddies longer than CF has been a thing. You’re wrong in that you think I could continue to maintain the site without CF in front of it, I would just shut it down. It’s not a profitable forum, it’s just a hobby.
rankdiff 5 hours ago [-]
What is "formally popular"?
klez 5 hours ago [-]
From context I'd say they meant "formerly" and that's just a typo. I didn't even notice the error before you pointed it out.
Demiurge 4 hours ago [-]
Yes, my bad! Typing on the terrible iPhone keyboard :)
mzajc 2 hours ago [-]
> Why is git.kernel.org “interesting” to crawlers
I think the post underestimates just how little thought and effort is put into these bots. I also run a cgit instance with far less interesting projects, and am not spared from the deluge of HTTP requests.
The explanation I could come up with is that they try to crawl all links regardless of how much sense it makes or how much load it causes. cgit being cgit, this means billions of links for all combinations of parameters and hashes. That, or it's a deliberate DDoS attack.
TonyTrapp 42 minutes ago [-]
Exactly my observation as well. They devour absolutely everything, no exceptions. No matter how stupid it might be to digest a source code repository via HTTP. They probably don't even recognize what's inside those pages and that there's an easier way to obtain the same result.
diegocg 35 minutes ago [-]
Which, as the post notes, it's incredibly stupid. So much for artificial "intelligence"
vintermann 1 hours ago [-]
A lot of work is apparently put into bypassing any kind of anti-scraping, no work is apparently put into figuring out if the site freely gives a way to get all that information in a less wasteful way.
Waterluvian 4 hours ago [-]
> It was immediately extremely effective — the bots just gave up. For a few months, it was bliss: bots were blocked at the perimeter and gave up, moving on to easier targets; the users were mildly annoyed but tolerated it, and the Anubis stack was easy enough to deploy everywhere.
As a tech person who works with tech people, I have become extremely sensitive to this kind of bias. Is this solution actually better? Is the CPU cost actually worse than mildly annoying everyone, or is it a problem being solved because it “offends the senses?”
I’m not leaning towards yes or no for this instance. But I regularly see people jumping to conclusions without measuring. What is the cost of 20% and is that cost worth “mildly annoying” everyone?
BowBun 4 hours ago [-]
Not sure if you mean the solution, or the problem they were trying to solve.
The problem is the cost here is paid by a group of volunteers, no? It's objectively reducing capacity for a really important public project by 20%. If you're responsible for keeping a public good like this available, it seems obvious to me to want to prevent this overuse of resources. Only one of the 3 parties involved here is not willing to engage in good faith right now and causing harm. I don't understand a need to try and tolerate them.
inigyou 53 minutes ago [-]
Both groups exist. Scraper DDoS is likely to burn 100% of your CPU on git diffs if you host git. But static file sites are unlikely to notice it.
javcasas 16 minutes ago [-]
At this point they are using residential proxies and stuff, and increasing the difficulty level is not going to help, among other things because they don't pay for it.
Why cannot we turn this whole proof of work thing into an official "help mining $SHITCOIN"? I mean, if they really want the data that badly, at least have them pay the hosting with their CPU/GPU/ASIC cycles.
easton 5 hours ago [-]
Side note: why are shallow clones evil? I always thought they were cheaper, but I guess that’s really just for my disk space. (since the server has to compute what blobs to give you instead of just “everything”?)
jacobvosmaer 5 hours ago [-]
Normal clones can reuse delta-compressed data the server stored on disk. Shallow clones impose a negative constraint: do not transfer data outside the requested commit depth. Pre-computed delta chains than contain unrequested data become unusable and the server must do delta compression on the fly to satsify the shallow clone.
ynniv 4 hours ago [-]
this is an increasingly common situation. it goes something like:
- i have a free, niche resource
- it becomes too popular
- i make it more efficient
- now it's really popular, and people are "abusing" it
- let's make them proof-of-work
- ... and proof-of-work harder
- but now "legitimate" users can't use it
- ???
the core problem is that the average person uses a mobile device where work is expensive, and the "attackers" use servers where work is cheap. if you require expensive proof-of-work, next comes a cheap-work-as-a-service where inefficient mobile devices pay small amounts of money to get efficient servers to complete their work for them. now everyone has an interest in making their usage efficient, but there's still an obvious inefficiency in the system: why have people pay unknown 3rd parties to burn cpu cycles to reduce costs for a free service, when you could just have people make small payments that cover the service's costs?
which is called l402/x402. micropayments' day has come
inigyou 48 minutes ago [-]
What's actually stopping them isn't the PoW, it's the customisation effort. If one site has Anubis nothing scrapes it. If many sites have Anubis they write counter scrapers. Today if you make a slight change to the Anubis algorithm on your site, they'll burn CPU endlessly computing hashes with the original algorithm and submitting wrong ones.
The author of Anubis hates this fact and will ban you if you mention it, so don't. He insists it's the PoW.
3 hours ago [-]
yellow_lead 5 hours ago [-]
High Anubis difficulty is annoying the hell out of me for several sites. And it's starting to not block LLM bots anymore?
> 33% are now solving the math and getting through to the main site — because apparently what we have to offer is worth spending a ton of cycles to calculate the Anubis challenge.
KomoD 4 hours ago [-]
> High Anubis difficulty is annoying the hell out of me for several sites.
I just close the website if I see Anubis. Some have it set at reasonable difficulties (like 2)… others have it where I need to wait for like 30 seconds, I'm not wasting 30 seconds of my life for that.
johneth 3 hours ago [-]
Just look at another tab while you're waiting if you're that bothered.
sethops1 5 hours ago [-]
In a few years the VC money will dry up and this gross overspend on slurping data will end.
igor47 5 hours ago [-]
Visions of vast data centers surrounded by fields of browning grass, in which aging, rusting, formerly extremely expensive hardware is spending billions of compute cycles looking at anime catgirls
marginalia_nu 4 hours ago [-]
It's very likely the last few years of bot behavior is the consequence of the residential proxy business booming. This is indirectly due to AI company crawling, but the fact that they are as cheap and available as they are changes the incentives for anyone using them toward reckless and unsustainable request behavior, as there is no risk of burning your IPs, and very small chances of seeing any consequences of essentially DDoS:ing a website.
inigyou 52 minutes ago [-]
And the residential proxy business was created by Cloudflare, who was created by us using Cloudflare.
I've been on all three sides (user of RPs, getting paid to run an RP, and trying to block RPs from my site). Residential proxy service is nice. You can scrape anything, even with the dumbest curl command, and only get a Cloudflare block maybe 15% of the time, in which case you just try again. That's less often than I get a cloudflare block from using a privacy browser from a non-proxy address. Cloudflare does not stop bots, it stops humans.
pixl97 4 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately we're apt to run into some kind of Jeavons Paradox where the hardware gets so much faster in those few years will be able to slurp massive amounts of data cheaply so the problem never really ends.
MithrilTuxedo 5 hours ago [-]
Has anyone considered having Anubis perform more valuable hashing?
Like, maybe you can't stop the LLM bots, but you can use them as one-off Bitcoin pool mining pool participants. You have to assume that making them find hash values with N leading zeroes has led to finding hash values with more than N leading zeroes. Maybe run a Bitcoin node under there and let each visitor take a couple swings for you with their pickaxes.
IshKebab 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah that has been around for many years. Usually by sketchy download sites.
It's not really going to help though because the scrapers using residential proxies aren't burning their own compute.
inigyou 52 minutes ago [-]
Yes they are. The proxy is just a proxy. All processing is central.
superjan 2 hours ago [-]
How feasible would it be to only offer a binary git (partial) download and move the html rendering to the client? It would still be a lot of requests, but less work for those servers. Not that I like SPA’s, but they could be useful here.
lkbm 6 hours ago [-]
> So, you'd think that something that pretends to be “Artificial Intelligence” would use the most efficient way of using our data for training purposes, right? Clone the repos, walk every commit. Done.
If repos like this were 10%+ of what they crawled, having a special case for clone-able repos would be smart, but if you're crawling everything, you're not going to do an efficiency tweak for each special case that has a more parse-able option.
DarmokTanagra 4 hours ago [-]
Most of these crawlers are probably AI generated in the first place, and AI generated code is garbage.
Thats a good enough explanation in my opinion.
Source: someone who reviews AI generated PR's on a daily basis
phmx 5 hours ago [-]
I guess GitHub is in a similar bunch of sources, it should be also more efficient to crawl by cloning.
Anyway, isn’t it the whole sales pitch that it generates tailored solutions fast?
kalkin 4 hours ago [-]
This tick about "if AI smart how come crawler dumb" is in most complaints I've read about AI crawlers and I've started to find it pretty annoying. The crawlers might be written using AI but they're evidently not actually running AI inference over the pages they get back--besides being able to tell this from the behavior, if this is pretraining input, that's enormous scale, so it'd mean a large increase in effective training cost. Naively assume inference costs are equal to pretraining costs (probably not true but maybe right order-of-magnitude) and it's a doubling.
This ends up tacitly turning a very legitimate complaint (ill-behaved crawlers) into a justification for head-in-the-sand AI denialism.
stickfigure 3 hours ago [-]
How about just stop offering a html interface to the code? This doesn't seem like a critical service. Let people clone the repo normally.
If someone else wants to run a public HTML service, let them deal with the bots.
If you really want to offer a web interface, put it behind login. You can apply enough restrictions (captcha, super slow rate limit for new accounts) that it isn't cost effective to generate zillions of logins, and you can monitor logins for bot behavior.
Sucks, but here we are.
oasisbob 3 hours ago [-]
I think you underestimate the difficulty in effectively gating user registration. If the anti-bot efforts in general don't work for other site pages, they won't work for signup functionality either.
delichon 5 hours ago [-]
> Why is git.kernel.org “interesting” to crawlers
Interesting to crawlers is not a narrow scope. We have the same problem on a B2B car wash site.
wiredfool 4 hours ago [-]
Seeing the exact same thing on (somewhat high profile) open data sites I run.
The crawlers get stuck in a loop requesting the dataset listing page with every. single. combination. of. facets. At essentially as fast as it can be pumped out or blocked.
Had one bot super interested in a single organization to the tune of 1000 r/min for 24+ hours. Realistic rotating user agents, realistic sec-* headers, no ip address seen more than a couple times in 10 minutes. The only commonality was the route.
inigyou 45 minutes ago [-]
Once detected, don't block them because they'll just change strategies automatically, but you can toy with them, like returning a page full of random numbers instead of real data.
marginalia_nu 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah my search engine saw traffic of up to 160 queries per second the other day from some bot that was ostensibly searching for information on Jack Parsons. Just variations on the same query in different permutations of filters and site:-terms.
inigyou 45 minutes ago [-]
That would be a different bot, one written specifically for your site. Mainly we're discussing the dumb ones that just crawl all possible http links
marginalia_nu 39 minutes ago [-]
No I think this is the same case. It seems to just be following local links on the SERP. From a search for jack parsons, you can find hyperlinks to the sorts of requests it's making.
iririririr 4 hours ago [-]
so true. the article authors wishing crawlers will use git instead is so funny because the crawlers don't care at all. they are scrapping everything with brute force. they don't care about your content or effective alternatives, and one more site driving their real users crazy with Anubis is nothing more than a new blip in their dashboard. the crawler operators will not even look at the url.
NooneAtAll3 5 hours ago [-]
from what I see there are 2 solutions:
1) ban TV-proxy-as-a-service - straight up go to every representative there is and start pushing and lobbying and everything to stop spammers from distributing over non-computer devices, especially legally
2) make old commits more expensive to access than new ones. Legit users are not going to access those much, so they can pay the time. I assume diverse (unpredictable?) difficulty can also make spam pulling harder
inigyou 47 minutes ago [-]
3) just track down the people and arrest them. DDoS is already a felony, and residential proxies aren't untraceable to law enforcement.
lxgr 4 hours ago [-]
> straight up go to every representative there is
In every country of the world? I think you might have a significantly easier time convincing Samsung and LG to ban this via their T&C.
Only a few countries would be enough, the rest will get banned until they pass apply similar policies.
johneth 3 hours ago [-]
If there was a way of detecting the proxy SDKs, it would be a simple matter of banning the device. Or at least naming and shaming the apps that use them.
voakbasda 5 hours ago [-]
I would think that residential proxying would be illegal already, as it is a network intrusion. The trick is chasing down the offenders, proving their actions did harm, and getting them to pay. None of those steps are easy, even if there are laws to assist. Otherwise, spam would be a solved problem.
inigyou 46 minutes ago [-]
It isn't illegal, there is no law against "network intrusion" which is a term you just made up, and if it was a real term it probably wouldn't cover this. There are laws against things like "unauthorized access to a protected computer system".
alwa 3 hours ago [-]
Is it still an intrusion if the user accepted the shrinkwrap TOS of an app that trades them “free TV” in exchange for allowing that app to operate a proxy (via an “app monetization” SDK) on their network?
voakbasda 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah, no one actually agrees to all of the individual terms in EULAs. That’s the first sign that the law will be nearly useless to address any aspect of these problems. It is already one-sided, and that side is not a friend to the consumer or general public.
__MatrixMan__ 2 hours ago [-]
This is a fundamental flaw in the web. Since we treat a server's name as authoritative, anybody maintaining a replica needs to repeatedly hit that server to know if their remote version is up to date.
If we trusted digital signatures on content instead of server names, we could have a model where a single bit of server load propagates to millions of interested parties. As it is the server must do something distinct for each interested party.
CDNs mitigate this only partially, because mutable data means they have no good cache invalidation strategy.
There's got to be a solution that doesn't involve heaping even more burdensome requirements on those who would dare to publish.
dennis-tra 2 hours ago [-]
Content-addressing decouples the hoster from the data itself. Anyone can serve content-addressed data and you can locally verify that you’ve got served the correct bytes. IPFS implements building blocks for such an alternative web.
What irony that this article is about crawling content-addressed data.
__MatrixMan__ 2 hours ago [-]
Agreed on both points. But it's looking increasingly likely that particular dream is not coming true. Kubo, the reference implementation IPFS node, is maintainerless as of last week.
I'm not sure where IPFS went wrong, but I think our web will continue to degrade until we figure it out. (It'll continue to degrade after that also, but then we can let it burn since we'll have a replacement to switch to).
__MatrixMan__ 2 hours ago [-]
I think focusing on filecoin was probably the mistake. You've got to build something that people trust first and then consider adding a money-shaped app. If you start with something money-shaped you're indistinguishable from the legions of scams, and that's a hard position to start from if you're wanting to build something trustworthy.
inigyou 43 minutes ago [-]
Or poll a merkle tree root hash, like, um, git
nneonneo 5 hours ago [-]
I wonder if one solution here could be to turn up Anubis difficulty if the first page hit is not one of the obvious entry-points to cgit. It could even have a little hint that says something to the effect of “go visit the home page if this is taking too long”. (Better not to ban them entirely, in case people really did click on some random link e.g. in a news story or mailing list message).
Distributed scrapers are going to generally try and hit their assigned list of pages; it’s a bigger waste of time if they have to go off to visit other pages first to get the cookie challenge.
nxndbebdb 5 hours ago [-]
Almost all of my visits to cgit instances are through direct deep links. Hard to imagine someone randomly browsing git listings
nneonneo 5 hours ago [-]
The kernel folks likely have a good profile on what page people trigger Anubis on (i.e. what page people hit first). From that they could make heuristics about what pages are likely to be useful deep links.
Keep in mind that Anubis will rarely inconvenience an actual user who visits the site often; it’s meant to keep out first-time scrapers trying to grab a few pages from their queue.
kgeist 38 minutes ago [-]
How about: "Type the seahorse emoji to solve the CAPTCHA" :) Something that triggers infinite loops in LLMs or trips the guardrails.
chuckadams 6 hours ago [-]
Given the nature of git, wouldn't all that HTML be highly cacheable? I get that's not free either, but it's got to be a lot less intensive than having cgit generate it every single time.
skybrian 4 hours ago [-]
Apparently the current implementation is very inefficient by modern standards:
Rather than using Anubis to give the client fake work, maybe the way to go would be to get the client to do the real work in JavaScript? Then the server doesn’t have to do it.
rcxdude 5 hours ago [-]
The issue is there's far more pages than could reasonably be stored: cgit is an old-school server-side renderer and there's a combinatorial explosion of possible pages it could render. The article calculates there's about a quadrillion different pages that could be 'crawled'
kees99 6 hours ago [-]
Or, html generation could be very, very fast in the first place. For example, serving static files is usually just as fast as a reverse-proxy cache.
Interestingly enough, cgit bills itself as "a hyperfast web frontend for git repositories" [0]. Alas, nothing is fast enough for the bots, it would appear.
That was my first thought, varnish (vinyl these days) in front of the website should dramatically reduce this as the git repo should be practically static for most of the content.
teo_zero 6 hours ago [-]
But there are "cubic bazillions" of possible URLs that are being requested. Even if they boil down to "only" some millions actual commits, their rendered HTMLs are all different.
oowa 28 minutes ago [-]
have a hackathon to solve for this. OP says it's not a problem for him right now but if we extrapolate what he's talking about it's definitely a problem aaaaaaand It's totally solvable, Even with all of the crazy combinations he's talking about it's still solvable. And it's already been solved using patterns we see in streaming services. This is completely hackathonable. but why do we even need to bother with this? The slurpers are the cause of this, and they can cause this problem because of Murphy's Law. well you can only account for Murphy's Law with good architecture or something like that or whatever. Ha ha hackathon.
kijin 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, this is very difficult to solve for sites with many URL variations, like git repos and heavily threaded forums. Your cache is always full, but the hit ratio is abysmal.
oowa 30 minutes ago [-]
no its only difficult for you. and only at this moment... any minute now you will see the way. btw, the OP is just saying "its OK for now". And the OP is just telling us: this is what has been happening... maybe its difficult for OP also, but they didnt say that. they just said their current setup cant handle it. old tech...have a hackathon to solve for this. OP says it's not a problem for him right now but if we extrapolate what he's talking about it's definitely a problem aaaaaaand It's totally solvable, Even with all of the crazy combinations he's talking about it's still solvable. And it's already been solved using patterns we see in streaming services. This is completely hackathonable. but why do we even need to bother with this? The slurpers are the cause of this, and they can cause this problem because of Murphy's Law. well you can only account for Murphy's Law with good architecture or something like that or whatever. Ha ha hackathon.
mik1998 5 hours ago [-]
The cache gets evicted between the times the old commits are revisited.
oowa 31 minutes ago [-]
using the current solution and a cache pattern doesnt solve it, but it is an "affordable" solvable problem. but first we need to ignore OP said its ok for now...have a hackathon to solve for this. OP says it's not a problem for him right now but if we extrapolate what he's talking about it's definitely a problem aaaaaaand It's totally solvable, Even with all of the crazy combinations he's talking about it's still solvable. And it's already been solved using patterns we see in streaming services. This is completely hackathonable. but why do we even need to bother with this? The slurpers are the cause of this, and they can cause this problem because of Murphy's Law. well you can only account for Murphy's Law with good architecture or something like that or whatever. Ha ha hackathon.
oowa 5 hours ago [-]
i think its only 7gb of data total, therefore there should be a strategy to fully optimize for this deterministic scenario, but instead of caching instead with maybe compiled streaming renderer(s)... but he said its ok for now.. and anyway why should they need to fix anything, the slurp is what sucks. pun intended
oowa 33 minutes ago [-]
anyway, I have solved this exact scenario many times in the last 30 years... thanks for the dv.. have a hackathon to solve for this. OP says it's not a problem for him right now but if we extrapolate what he's talking about it's definitely a problem aaaaaaand It's totally solvable, Even with all of the crazy combinations he's talking about it's still solvable. And it's already been solved using patterns we see in streaming services. This is completely hackathonable. but why do we even need to bother with this? The slurpers are the cause of this, and they can cause this problem because of Murphy's Law. well you can only account for Murphy's Law with good architecture or something like that or whatever. Ha ha hackathon.
NegativeLatency 4 hours ago [-]
Claude loves doing this on GitHub repos too, I have line in my agents file to tell it to clone to tmp and look there.
initramfs 6 hours ago [-]
I've been noticing page views in the past several months with a much wider span of origin on my Blogger stats. Before I would get a few from several countries, but now I am getting views from tiny countries and obscure or outdated browsers and operating systems, which leads me to think scrapers could be using VPN services in various countries along with header anonymizers that mask the device that they are using.
Great for AI scrapers, bad for hosters and everyone else.
bourse_lee 1 hours ago [-]
What if Anubis computations were turned into a crypto-miner
fer 42 minutes ago [-]
Browsers, at least Firefox, blocks crypto-miners. How to tell legitimate from underhanded crypto-mining?
cobbzilla 2 hours ago [-]
I ended public access to my git server after I got flooded by bots and my own commits were noticeably lagging.
That’s not an option for the kernel. It’s hard to read the cat-and-mouse account with any hope today. I think the flood abates someday but not sure how it happens.
marginalia_nu 4 hours ago [-]
FWIW, git hosts have always interacted very poorly with crawlers, to the point where you have to actively code in git host detection to avoid getting stuck in an accidental crawler trap if you want to run a well behaved crawler. Easiest is just to look for anything that looks like a commit hash in a path and drop those URLs from the crawl frontier.
Reason they interact so poorly is that is that git hosts generate a lot of links. One for each file in each commit, and a diff for each file appearing in a pair of commits. Even a small repo can have millions of viable links, and most of these are stupidly expensive to render for the git host. On top of this crawlers generally don't have a very deep understanding of what they are crawling, and can't meaningfully distinguish computationally expensive requests from cheap ones.
feelamee 5 hours ago [-]
Hm, interesting - how will it look the actual solution for such problems in the future. I suppose the issue will continue to grow.
First idea - there should be some cost for sending traffic somewhere. And the server owner also should receive pay - not only the internet provider.
So, in with this idea, the server owner can potentially increase the amount of computing power to satisfy all requests.
klez 5 hours ago [-]
> there should be some cost for sending traffic somewher
So now, because of bad actors, I need to pay for the privilege of watching a website or using a service that was meant to be free? No, thanks.
I don't have a solution, but "break how the web currently works" is not one I would accept all willy nilly.
EDIT: yes, I realize we already broke the web (with Anubis, cloudflare, recaptcha etc) but I think we should resist slowly breaking it further.
inigyou 40 minutes ago [-]
The internet is already like that, but for some reason the payment only extends as far as the recipient's ISP, not the actual recipient. Most senders pay a flat rate, but their ISP doesn't.
feelamee 4 hours ago [-]
> So now, because of bad actors, I need to pay for the privilege of watching a website or using a service that was meant to be free? No, thanks.
First of all - I suppose it should be very cheap. So, real humans will not pay much.
Second - why do u think that websites are meant to be free? They provide some service, so its a rather strange that the internet is so free (in both senses). I think, this freeiness is allowed to greatly speed up popularization. But for me is obvious that it can demand payment for service.
And third - service owner really meant it to be free, I don't see any problems with this in my idea. It can still provide free service.
klez 3 hours ago [-]
I'm not saying websites can't demand payments for service, I'm just saying it's bad if it's a necessary fix for "scrapers are destroying the basic social contract of the web".
rwmj 5 hours ago [-]
It's a social problem, technical solutions aren't going to work. To solve social problems you need the law to get involved. It should simply be illegal to install malware on someone's TV and use it to hijack their internet connection, and the punishment should be the same as for any theft of service, including imprisonment for people who do it.
feelamee 4 hours ago [-]
The law will not work without a technical solution.
So, you need both. But, at least, technical.
inigyou 39 minutes ago [-]
You just take a sample of the crawling to whichever police department knows how to deal with DDoS, they subpoena the ISPs involved and trace who's using the proxies?
userbinator 47 minutes ago [-]
So, you'd think that something that pretends to be “Artificial Intelligence” would use the most efficient way of using our data for training purposes, right?
I'm strongly convinced that these aren't "AI crawlers"; they're just plain DDoSes done by those who have interests in turning the Internet into a dystopian walled garden with "security", and now they have a convenient scapegoat to blame. Don't you find it too coincidental with the rise in identity/age verification and other attempts at silencing free speech on the Internet?
It's widely known there are questions that LLMs can't solve, and once in a while an obvious example appears, so a simple CAPTCHA-like challenge with an HTML-only form would be the logical "defense". Instead there's a huge interest in pushing JS-required proof-of-work (as others have pointed out, these attackers have far more compute than the average user) and remote attestation (there are already providers with huge farms of mobile devices that can defeat this easily).
Things just don't add up.
afarah1 3 hours ago [-]
Why not aggressively rate limit? Legitimate use of HTML rendered commits should be largely unaffected, and crawlers slowed to a halt. You can even jail after a number of 429's...
mattmcal 3 hours ago [-]
There is a section in the article answering your question if you read it.
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you.
mbirth 2 hours ago [-]
I’d love a service like spamcop.net where I could submit my access_log and they lookup the abuse addresses and file abuse reports in my name. Maybe if people’s Internet access gets suspended they’ll think about installing random apps that work as a proxy in the background.
inigyou 40 minutes ago [-]
abuseipdb.com
Some ISPs ban customers based on a single report there - have fun!
fer 39 minutes ago [-]
If you operate your site alone in a silo yes, but crowdsourced solutions to ban/rate limit those IPs exist.
hei-lima 48 minutes ago [-]
Great chart! Does anyone know what tool was used to make this?
AshamedCaptain 5 hours ago [-]
This is bad enough that I'm going to stop serving cgit. I've been doing cvsweb, then subversion, then cgit over my home server for many many years and for the first time ever this is annoying my own bw usage.
It's ridiculous also how you ban an IP then 1 second later another one picks up from where the first one left on.
rwmj 5 hours ago [-]
I had to take down my cgit repository a few months ago. The load was causing other VMs on the same machine to become unusable.
singpolyma3 4 hours ago [-]
I've been using git-arr instead with some success
arlattimore 2 hours ago [-]
In the case of kernel.org, why not make the unauthenticated version return only the latest kernel repo with no history (tiny number of URLs relatively speaking). If you want full kernel.org features, login.
kuschkufan 48 minutes ago [-]
because they do not want to be twitter, reddit, facebook, ...
bauerd 5 hours ago [-]
They're the exception, not the rule. They get crawled like any other site, but happen to host git repositories. It's not obvious that these are targeted crawls and they likely may just end up in crawling queues a lot generally
inigyou 2 hours ago [-]
I also had this problem, but since nobody actually uses my gitea site besides crawlers, I just let a script run through my access log and ban every IP address who asked for a commit in the last 24 hours
a-dub 5 hours ago [-]
i wonder what they're all up to. i imagine some are scraping datasets for pre-training, others are probably real-time scrapers looking for security bugs, even more still are agents working on coding tasks and looking at the kernel. also interesting to think about solutions: does everything need to be optimized now for weird access patterns that proliferated ai creates? do the ais need to have behavior trained in to be better netizens? is this the end of anonymous browsing and the beginning of an era where one has to attach an identity to all requests? or the end of community hosted free information services more broadly?
jopsen 4 hours ago [-]
I've seen this too.
I think it's a few bad actors really. Because nobody serious about indexing content will do what these crawlers are doing..
They are consume lots of content that is unoriginal or duplicate or duplicate with minor modifications.
Not sure how to block, but maybe a little bit of law enforcement could dramatically reduce the number of TVs being used a proxies.
iamniels 3 hours ago [-]
I run a website with 10k unique pages. If I leave the gates open, Meta hits it 200.000 times per day. Every day. What are you paying developers $500k for Mark?
jopsen 2 hours ago [-]
200k req/day = 2.3 req/s
That's bad for static content.
Try adding search, with pagination and 16 filters that can toggled on off. And 1000 tags, give each page 5.
ChocolateGod 3 hours ago [-]
> phone gets uncomfortably warm as it's doing the number crunching
IMHO if I visit your website and it intentionally starts wasting my electricity for no other reason than to cost me money, with no opt in, it's hostile and malicious.
inigyou 38 minutes ago [-]
You try hosting gitea in 2026. The only other option is taking the site offline.
Kuinox 2 hours ago [-]
1.4 billions requests, 258 160 cpu hours.
That's 1.5 requests per second ?
I'm starting to believe, the issue is more that their software is not well optimized.
andruby 4 hours ago [-]
A creepy crawly is a South African invention to clean your swimming pool. The company that introduced them in the 70ies is called Kreepy Krauly. Also popular in Australia.
Instead of trying to block why not monetize? So the proof of work can be directed at something you can be paid for (bitcoin mining)?
inigyou 38 minutes ago [-]
Monero would work better.
alkonaut 3 hours ago [-]
Proof-of-humanity can’t come soon enough.
We’re talking about privacy-preserving proof of age, but as we see here the real utility of such a system will be proof of humanity.
Arubis 3 hours ago [-]
How do you define humanity?
How do you ensure it includes every human?
How do you ensure it doesn’t include every non-human?
I’m not even asking about computation or algorithms. I straight up don’t think you can make a definition that isn’t a tautology or an approximation. Both of which are useful, but neither of which can fit a _proof_.
alkonaut 29 minutes ago [-]
Every place on earth has some legal definition of who is human. The system I’m thinking of isn’t a technical/captcha one, it’s a human curated list of humans. Just an electronic ID. Those already exist but the challenge is making them (acceptably) privacy-preserving.
I want to take my existing national digital ID and use it online basically. BUT I don’t want the websites to know it’s me. Just that I’m human (or perhaps over a certain age). And I don’t want the ID issuer to know what site/service asked whether I’m a human or I’m 18 etc.
Kamq 2 hours ago [-]
You're not wrong, but something can work well enough to still be useful despite falling short of the idea of a proof or any formal definition.
Let's say that 95% of individual humans can pass it and only 2% of bots. For someone maintaining a website, who has to decide between using this system and shutting down their site because of the increased costs, that may very well be good enough
inigyou 37 minutes ago [-]
I'm one of the 5% apparently, cloudflare thinks I'm a bot. I suppose you'll exempt me in exchange for all my ID documents and bank statements?
Arubis 2 hours ago [-]
That’s a pragmatic and understandable argument. And for an individual hobbyist site owner, that’s fine. Are we okay with excluding 1 person in 20 from the services of a midsized organization? What if they’re integral to the workplace? Or a major transport provider without differentiated competitors? What if the organization is a state government?
edent 5 hours ago [-]
WordPress powered a huge number of websites. Yet the crawlers all go straight for the HTML of those sites rather than the more efficient and structured JSON API which all WordPress sites have.
If these crawlers are so smart, why aren't they following the rel="alternate" which is provided explicitly for them?
kardos 5 hours ago [-]
Because they suspect that, sometimes, different content will be served by HTML vs alternate APIs
oowa 37 minutes ago [-]
have a hackathon to solve for this. OP says it's not a problem for him right now but if we extrapolate what he's talking about it's definitely a problem aaaaaaand It's totally solvable, Even with all of the crazy combinations he's talking about it's still solvable. And it's already been solved using patterns we see in streaming services. This is completely hackathonable. but why do we even need to bother with this? The slurpers are the cause of this, and they can cause this problem because of Murphy's Law. well you can only account for Murphy's Law with good architecture or something like that or whatever. Ha ha hackathon.
lxgr 3 hours ago [-]
> [...] when a source is guaranteed to be LLM-free, like the entire history of kernel commits [...]
Is that really the case? It was my understanding that LLM-based agents were explicitly allowed as long as their users follow certain guidelines [1]?
And more generally: Somehow the theory of "essentially all bot traffic is AI labs crawling the Internet for LLM training data" doesn't make sense to me at all. There are at best dozens of labs capable of running their own crawl at Internet scale, but hundreds of millions of people using LLMs to answer their questions. (If my personal LLM usage is any indication, firing off dozens or hundreds of web fetches to answer a single question is not unusual.)
While I understand that many existing projects have been resourced only for human readers and might as a result be struggling due to this, this characterization sounds a bit dishonest to me.
And unfortunately, for this use case (i.e. ephemeral queries in a context possibly lacking storage or git access), forking the individual repo to answer a handful of string match queries against it might just be more expensive than to run that query against a web search index and then just fetch those results over HTTP.
The solution would accordingly also look very different, as caching at the inference layer is significantly harder than at the training one (where it's most likely already widely done as that seems like a no-brainer).
How expensive would AI access be if every user paid their fair share instead of shoving it on the people doing the actual work?
wredcoll 5 hours ago [-]
See also: the price for uber rides.
parineum 6 hours ago [-]
You mean shoving it onto the investors?
inigyou 36 minutes ago [-]
No they mean the people doing the actual work, I think.
asah 2 hours ago [-]
Just slow unauthenticated traffic to non-essential stuff...
tarpitt 5 hours ago [-]
Maybe you could have a system that heuristicially detects when an crawler is making the request and then feeds them a modified page, itself generated from an LLM, that injects vulnerabilities and bad code and discussion and such.
NooneAtAll3 5 hours ago [-]
it's hard to separate spambot that only accesses 3-5 links per IP and a legit user. Changing content for legit user can be devastating
inigyou 36 minutes ago [-]
Put a cookie wall in front. The bot will either load the cookie and have a persistent identifier, or not load the cookie and not get in
DarmokTanagra 4 hours ago [-]
AI has simultaneously made the easiest parts of web development even easier while making the hardest parts near impossible.
singpolyma3 4 hours ago [-]
Why is no one filing lawsuits over this yet?
mmooss 4 hours ago [-]
Indeed. The solution isn't technical but legal. It's clearly abusive of - really stealing - other people's resources; there's no question about it.
For some reason, like with fraud via email, text, and phone, we don't do anything about it. All this brazen crime and government does nothing; we don't even imagine government doing anything.
akersten 3 hours ago [-]
The brazen crime of asking for a resource and receiving it.
You have the power, and should exercise it, to rate limit bad actors
inigyou 34 minutes ago [-]
How do you know who the bad actors are, if you don't use the legal process to unmask them?
Symbiote 4 hours ago [-]
Against what person or entity?
inigyou 34 minutes ago [-]
Sometimes the first step of a lawsuit is discovering who you're suing. It's not unusual and there are processes for it. You could bring something like an access log to a court and receive an order for all ISPs involved to unmask the corresponding users.
singpolyma3 1 hours ago [-]
Whoever is doing the abuse. If we don't know who that is we should find out
johneth 3 hours ago [-]
Bright Data et al.
inigyou 33 minutes ago [-]
Bright Data's business is legal, but they could be subpoenaed to find out which customer is making these requests, but first you would have to prove they were actually involved, because there are many residential proxy providers.
Velocifyer 4 hours ago [-]
I would add cloudflare, but set it to cache only mode *without* the bot blocking features.
inigyou 35 minutes ago [-]
No point, they are all unique requests.
calvinmorrison 52 minutes ago [-]
I love to see the 'leet kernel hackers and maintainers' struggling with basic volume. Each page load should cost you near nil. Us lowly PHP developers have been caching shit for close to twenty years.
Learn how to cache your application and your cpu usage should be almost zero. In fact basically any read should cost nothing in comparison to writes.
inigyou 41 minutes ago [-]
It's running a diff between two arbitrary blobs of text. Do you actually have a solution or are you just saying to remove the feature from the site entirely?
> Us PHP developers
I can tell.
calvinmorrison 4 minutes ago [-]
it's not an insult. yes. cache heavily. shitty php stacks serving trillions of dollars of ecommerce sales have managed to do it for a long time.
nxndbebdb 5 hours ago [-]
Just serve the raw commit and render on frontend. I really don't get why they are complaining, just be performant
RussianBot9580 4 hours ago [-]
And for a shallow clone you would serve... what?
hdbsbs 1 hours ago [-]
No need for a shallow clone, just let the Frontend fetch the relevant objects from a static file server
hnisjafx40 2 hours ago [-]
Learned this the expensive way
monegator 3 hours ago [-]
The thing that bothers me is why the fuck are they still scraping git.kernel.org or any other site that has already been scraped a million times before. Who would pay for that data?
Then again there is the conspiracy theory about cloudflare sponsoring the scrapers
jruohonen 1 days ago [-]
Off-topic, but anyone with which he did the plots?
“Expect to lose some functionality, at least when accessing our resources anonymously.”
This seems fine to me. It would be a better world if we could have anonymous bulk data access. But if aggressive scrapers are bloating host costs, I’m fine with logging in.
Now, the flip side is that ONCE logged in, I want my bulk access. The worst of all worlds with when you demand authentication and then STILL block bulk access.
Case in point, I want to automatically download my Amazon and Target order records. This is easy to automate with playwright or whatever, but authentication stays annoying. My sessions expire quickly and I have to re-auth all the time. There should be an API to pull this data down.
5 hours ago [-]
forrestthewoods 2 hours ago [-]
> Shallow clones are awful. Run your own damn mirror if you're going to do something nasty like that.
TIL shallow clones are expensive. That's wild to me. It's supposed to be cheaper!
api 4 hours ago [-]
The AI companies should have their AI fix their crappy inefficient crawler code.
Velocifyer 5 hours ago [-]
But why don't they just git clone?
rcxdude 5 hours ago [-]
These crawlers (in contrast to e.g. googlebot and similar better behaved crawlers) are not very smart: they seem to make very little effort to avoiding crawling useless deep trees of generated pages. About the only thing they seem to put a lot of effort into is avoiding blocking.
(I'll note that while these are generally attributed to AI data gathering because of the timing of when they took off, it's not actually obvious who's running these bots. The big players all have crawlers that identify themselves and are reasonably well behaved, but I don't know if anyone has managed to positively attribute these other ones to any particular group)
ipdashc 4 hours ago [-]
> it's not actually obvious who's running these bots
This is fascinating to me. It's a large enough phenomenon that it's affecting the entire Internet and yet nobody seems to know yet who's actually doing it. Which isn't surprising, of course, it's hard to trace back to a source through all these proxies and it's probably a bunch of distinct groups anyways, but still!
Personally I have to wonder how much of it is "scrapers for training data" vs just tool-use LLMs. Even if you use chatgpt in thinking mode you can clearly see it searching and visiting a bunch of different websites to answer a question, presumably faster than any human would. That's got to add up. It's got me wondering why everyone seemingly discounts that as an option
inigyou 32 minutes ago [-]
Especially since if any crawler IP is in your country, you can get a subpoena to find out who it is.
tmp10423288442 4 hours ago [-]
ChatGPT uses a distinct bot type for ChatGPT-initiated web search versus model training:
GPTBot → model improvement / training crawl
OAI-SearchBot → search index / ChatGPT Search
ChatGPT-User → fetch initiated by a user's ChatGPT interaction
OAI-AdsBot → advertising landing-page crawl
voakbasda 4 hours ago [-]
Why do we think that only “good guys” are training LLMs? I imagine organized crime is getting in on the game too.
Symbiote 4 hours ago [-]
Meta is an exception. They intentionally ignore robots.txt rules.
(No second chances, I blocked their whole IP range.)
inigyou 31 minutes ago [-]
Everyone ignores robots.txt because every robots.txt blocks everyone.
lkbm 5 hours ago [-]
Because they're crawling a billion webpages, only a tiny fraction of which can be git cloned, and configuring a special case just for that tiny fraction isn't worth the effort (of the crawlers).
DarmokTanagra 4 hours ago [-]
vibe coded crawlers run by morally bankrupt trend chasers aren't going to be the most well engineered systems you come across.
acedTrex 5 hours ago [-]
Because the crawlers dont care, they are the internets parasites. Their creators care nothing for people or systems downstream of their greed.
bluedino 5 hours ago [-]
> But no, let's in fact choose the stupidest possible way of doing it — by rendering everything as HTML commit by commit and then parsing it.
I feel like I'm at work.
We had some web crawler using Selenium to make queries and scrape the data instead of just downloading the whole file.
Every day it seems like we have some people that know just enough to be dangerous creating things like that. And then of course it's our fault that things are slow, or we won't give them infinite system resources, etc
6d6b73 2 hours ago [-]
Add a lot of random text to the html pages, preferably hidden to regular users, have the bots use lots of tokens to process it all.
gib444 5 hours ago [-]
Running Firefox with Temporary Containers Plus makes challenges 10x more annoying :D
(Each new tab is isolated, unless opening a link in a new tab. Same as Safari in private mode)
0xbadcafebee 5 hours ago [-]
I'm assuming they haven't yet sent responses to the bots? Since AI is dumb, you can send errors that tell the bot to git clone rather than crawl. If it's vulnerable to prompt injection, it might listen and do the clone instead and stop trying to solve challenges.
Barring that, I think the solution is to charge money for access. Require users to sign up to render HTML, and provide a form of payment (any form you want). The cost is, say, $0.1 per GB. Rate limit all requests to reduce CPU. For the average user this will cost a few cents. For the bots you'll cover your costs and have a rate limiter to keep your system from being overwhelmed. Or they can git clone for free with no limit.
nicman23 5 hours ago [-]
couldn't you have anubis on a dynamic difficulty? ie if a ip requests more than 1k pages per day +1 the difficulty ?
dunder_cat 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, but the article (not to call you out - I just think it's a very important point!) points out that this type of throttling would not be effective:
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you. You just needlessly ballooned your firewall ruleset by adding IPs that would never be back.
Without something like cookies (which are almost certainly tossed after the IP is rotated) or some other persistent identifier, you are stuck have to apply mitigations that scale with the load you're encountering, which means longer challenges for everyone or degraded functionality, like removing some of the fancier cgit features.
marginalia_nu 4 hours ago [-]
I've had a fair bit of success with increasing the bot mitigation based on a global rate limit. During periods of high request rates, I throw progressively more hurdles at the bots, and during periods of low request rates I disable them all.
nicman23 3 hours ago [-]
yeah i my head i thought they meant 4-5 _K_ requests
PinkaDunka 5 hours ago [-]
Maybe anubis difficulty should depend on the age of commit. This year - 4, everything older 8
nicman23 3 hours ago [-]
or on cache hit /miss
adverbly 4 hours ago [-]
Is it really stupid if it means more data centers need to be built and it keeps the AI bubble going and GDP number go up?
acedTrex 5 hours ago [-]
It feels inevitable that many systems will have to go to a login/trusted ip source type system. Its just not feasible to continue to operate with 99% of your traffic being fake.
6 hours ago [-]
iririririr 4 hours ago [-]
anyone knows how Jwz solution is working?
dont click next link because he will show a nutsack image if the referrer contains hackernews. love the guy.
basically, instead of blocking, he just poison it. and if a human sees it, it takes less effort to ignore the nonsense than it takes your pocket computer to deal with proof of work.
TZubiri 4 hours ago [-]
Same problem we've been having for ages.
Using shared ip banlists is the best solution so far, like cloudflare. Sure maybe they hit your server for 5 seconds and then desist, but they'll attack someone else, and they'll eventually rotate.
I'm not sure if Anubis has a feature for centralized banlists, but I'm assuming since it's OS and privacy oriented, there isn't.
There's a tradeoff between privacy and abuse, you want privacy? You get abuse, you want to battle abuse? Gotta sacrifice privacy. Worth noting that unmarked vpn users (residential proxy or residential vpn users) use these proxies for privacy, and therefore give a reasonable alibi to abusers.
inigyou 30 minutes ago [-]
Cloudflare doesn't block bots.
stefantalpalaru 18 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
petesergeant 5 hours ago [-]
> Training an LLM on content produced by the LLM gives it the equivalent of a digital prion disease
Is it foolish of me to have expected more from a blog post on kernel.org?
As the article states, this phenomenon may be documented, but there is no consensus that it describes any practical reality.
The predicted consequences have now had time to manifest, and have not done so. This makes the claim either false or overstated. Perhaps there will be issues in the future, but to date there have been many claims that AI development will stall (for a variety of reasons). If they were the critical weaknesses they have been portrayed as, models would not have advanced to the level they are today.
If you have a hypothesis, make a clear prediction based upon it. If you start pushing the date forward after each failed prediction, you end up looking like a hapless doomsday cult. If your hypothesis is correct however, your prediction should actually happen. Then provided you have not made so many predictions to get one right by chance, people will take what you have to say seriously.
leoqa 4 hours ago [-]
It seems clear to me we are moving towards a world where you will have to perform device attestation to access the internet. The spam/abuse is too great and accelerating.
okanat 2 hours ago [-]
What prevents people from obtaining or buying such devices and automating them? Using TVs as proxies is just one example of that. People will be willing to give their ID cards away too, if you pay them or beat them enough.
inigyou 29 minutes ago [-]
In fact they already do this. Buying 100 android phones and chargers is cheaper than reverse engineering whatever you're trying to automate - or was, before AI.
znnajdla 5 hours ago [-]
Put a CDN in front and let them absorb the load? Seriously, this is static content, which is so cheap to serve it should be free.
ninglor 4 hours ago [-]
This is not meaningfully static content. Look at the charts in TFA. There is a combinatorial explosion of distinct URLs which the crawlers can and do request.
jopsen 4 hours ago [-]
They allow you to diff commits, which is an awesome feature.
But if bots a crawling diffs between all possible commits it's crazy.
CDN will do nothing, because it's new urls each time. You can maybe find a CDN provider that block bots.
inigyou 29 minutes ago [-]
No CDN blocks bots. Some claim to. None do.
grep_it 4 hours ago [-]
Did you read the article?
“[…]because we can generate 1.2 METRIC BAJILLION valid URLs just for a single fork of linux.git.”
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
inigyou 29 minutes ago [-]
What if it's really obvious they didn't read the article?
I noticed the other day that lists.ffmpeg.org had moved to Anubis difficulty level 6, which takes ~180sec for my iPhone 17 to solve at ~100KH/s, making the site unusable. So I spent ~10 minutes vibe coding a safari extension with a native bridge to an optimized C kernel using ARM SHA256H* instructions that can do 200+ MH/s on the same device. This solves Anubis difficulty level 6 in a handful of milliseconds.
Given the numbers and capabilities involved (a single $5K ASIC miner yields 200TH/s, a million times more hash rate than my optimized kernel running on an iPhone), I don’t see how proof of work could possibly be a sustainable strategy to keep bots out without ruining human user experience. It’s an arms race that can’t be won.
Edit: I encourage you to try this yourself. Here's a sample prompt that ought to one-shot the task:
For reference, the challenge on lists.ffmpeg.org takes 8 seconds on Firefox on my three year old laptop CPU that has worse benchmark scores than the iPhone 17 (tbf, the laptop also cost less than an iPhone 17). 8 seconds doesn't run against thermal limitations, so I really don't see why Safari on a modern iPhone should be so slow at this
They're not trying to engage in an arms race, they're trying to channel a racing river into its natural course.
I think the path forward is that websites offer one path for humans, and another for scrapers. But the huge catch is the path for scrapers must be _genuinely_ and _reliably_ the more economical and scalable path (either through something like PoW arms races, or through fear of litigation). Otherwise they will continue to ignore instructions and intrude on the human path.
Depending on the configuration, Anubis will supply a token after the challenge that bypasses the challenge for a time.
So any scraper that retains basic cookies will be able to bypass the challenge for a number of page views.
A user who needs to load a single page and a bot that wants to scrape a number of pages may pay the same cost.
The amortized per-view cost is highest for the real user.
Or… the site will serve a random seed and the device must compute 4gb of pseudo-random data, then supply a value at a random server-demanded offset.
You yourself describe the solution.
Extensions or browser integrations of the Anubis task.
But it would just make Anubis suck a little bit less
Anubis "protection" model is wrong/broken on several levels. I suppose it does not even have ability to bypass hashing screen when server load is low.
Anubis is not a load optimizer. It's sole purpose is to deny the bots you don't want on your site.
It's on the same category as Iocaine and Go-Away, even if what they do is different in some cases.
You can see the implementation here: https://gitlab.com/cryptsetup/cryptsetup/-/blob/main/lib/cry...
That's exactly not what happens with scrapers. Scrapers make millions of requests, yes. But each one of those requests produces an average (token-denominated) reward V'. There's no asymmetry at all: you're just adding a fixed cost to each reward, for both users and abusers.
That's before you even get to questions like "does the system actually work, or does a single solve get practically unbounded rewards".
There is: users solve the PoW once, scrappers solve it every time they rotate IP addresses. Some of them change their IP address on every request, so they keep solving the PoW over and over.
Which: I get! If it's your site, perform all the anger you want.
Anubis doesn't really help against this.
Even if you had to solve a L6 challenge for every request it's faster than the total RTT time of most servers. In other words not a meaningful barrier. And L6 is already a level which severely interferes with human usage of a site.
a $5000 ASIC-based device can hash SHA256 at 200TH/s or more.
And yet many report it works, at least for now, and the excess load due to scraping activity falls precipitously when Anubis or similar solutions are used. Maybe once this sort of challenge is used almost everywhere we'll see concerted attempts to get around it, but for now it is easier for them to just move on to another target.
> a $5000 ASIC-based device can hash SHA256 at 200TH/s or more
Peanuts for the big players, but many (almost all?) running smaller scale scraping operations are going to find $5000 rather prohibitive, and they are unlikely to be able to integrate it as they are probably running a “stock” scraper that they didn't write themselves.
I wonder if AI might be able to come up with new PoW algorithms in a nightly CI job so every day is a different puzzle...
Sure, the cheap lock I added to the outside shed's door-latch is terrible and can be shimmed open in two seconds with a bit of flat metal... but the important thing right now is that it keeps the raccoons out.
When the reward to abuse crosses a certain threshold, a determined party will come along and completely dominate it.
Anubis is just "solve hashes to get access to a valuable resources", and if the resource is at least valuable to whoever you're trying to deter as it is to legitimate users, you're not deterring anyone (and by extension, if it's more valuable to them, you're deterring your legitimate users instead).
Instead of the proof-of-work system of Anubis, I've gone down the iocaine route but implemented it in my application itself, as it's built in Elixir and causing problems for scrapers is really fun when it takes almost no server resources.
Currently I trick bad scrapers into a fake infinite black hole path with the promise of tasty data, then serve images to them one byte at a time over 15 minutes (after sending the header quickly), bloat the responses to cost them tokens, and randomly return AI generated images of sexy toasters. I have an admin dashboard with a little leaderboard for which ones get the most stuffed, and it keeps my heart warm on these wet autumn evenings.
You can't tease us like that without showing screenshots.
https://ibb.co/mCgXPZPg https://ibb.co/qFxVRQGW https://ibb.co/9m6xV1xg
I only just added the token wasting measure so I'm really curious to see what happens if another bot loads over 400 pages.
The only punishment would be unique text that trains their models to be degenerate. And even then you'd probably have to serve across many domains.
The altered versions would be the page or paragraphs of it, with sentences and words swapped arbitrarily so that training on the data adds as many iffy token sequences as correct ones.
Elixir's really fun to do this in because the BEAM will let you have hundreds of thousands of processes sat around doing nothing quite happily, so slow IO and such is something it's weirdly well-suited to.
This is on my photography site so I'm less fussed about them harvesting my writing, and more about causing problems for image harvesters. I'm sure they'll get some stuff anyway but at least one bot got stuck in a 400 page hellhole earlier today so I'm overall very pleased :D
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44962529
It never really cohered as a solution. High-powered scrapers are better equipped to handle proof-of-work challenges than end users. Proof of work makes sense for a password hash, where any one guess at a password provides zero marginal utility. But every request from a scraper is productive to the scraper.
However, the refrain from naysayers isn't that there's too much enthusiasm. It's that anubis doesn't make sense as a theoretical barrier against bots. Who cares as long as it works empirically, even briefly? Are you suggesting people let their sites continue to be degraded or unusable until they find a better solution, even though PoW challenges can improve the situation today?
Not everyone has the luxury of writing their own web app designed to handle massive bot traffic at minimal cost, gutting functionality to meet that requirement if necessary.
I noticed a couple of weeks ago that 1-2 orders of magnitude more bots were getting past anubis challenges. However, it would be incorrect to conclude that it's doing nothing and now worthless aside from heating up visitors' cpus. If I turn it off, I see >2x bots.
The next salvo in the war of attrition will probably be when anubis switches to wasm hashx, which the author suggested, in previous HN threads, is on the roadmap.
If bots quickly adapt (Claude vibe-coded JIT wasm-to-native-transpiler for hashx challenge algorithms?), that may be the end of anubis and efforts like it. If they don't, I expect more HN threads with people complaining that such compiler efforts are possible and therefore PoW-gated sites are doing it wrong... even if those sites stay usable.
I'm just saying, it's bad computer science.
A better, perhaps the best, argument is that a worse bot mix might appear tomorrow, so anubis should be used as a runway for a better solution, and not as a solution in itself. If only everyone with a website had the desire (or AI tokens) to implement their own better solution. In some cases even desire or a lot of tokens isn't enough. I mean, you think kernel.org folks haven't put some serious thought into it? And yet, as HN argues about it, there's kernel.org running anubis at difficulty 5.
- It's the SOTA companies doing it?
- Scrapers are doing it for training data?
Those are two assumptions I see in posts and threads around Anubis, that are taken at faith, and never once substantiated.
The scraper problem now is fleets of residential proxy devices - often things like smart TVs, phones, and browsers with some “proxy SDK” installed as part of an app’s monetization scheme. They make a couple of requests to a site - just enough to fly under the radar - and move on to a different site.
If each new site they hit forces them to solve a proof-of-work, that’s a meaningful dent in their scraping performance. Many of these boxes may not even have the spare CPU power to efficiently solve so many proofs of work - and anything that makes an owner notice their device is running slow is something that could meaningfully impede adoption of these SDKs, or force the operators to choose between minimizing performance impact or scraping more sites.
See also how captchas continued being effective for years despite services like anti-captcha offering to solve them for you for a fifth of a cent each by farming the work out to India. It took advances in AI that made it viable to reliably solve them on-device to bring the end of the captcha
All they need to do is forward traffic and launder its IP origin. They don't even need to be able to (and would actually be well advised not to) decrypt TLS streams.
I don't think that's generally how these networks use residential exit proxies. There are at least a dozen well-developed frameworks out there for decoupling the crawler from the network exit point.
Most res proxy exits are just slinging bytes for clients using SOCKS, or another tunneling protocol.
If nothing else, a modern scraper will want better control over their TLS fingerprints, and you can't get that if you're depending on the on-device TLS libraries alone.
Until they discover this neat trick [1] and solve challenges orders of magnitudes more efficiently than legitimate users.
The game theory of Anubis is not sound. It makes fundamentally less sense than Captchas, and even those have been on the way out for a while.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49500040
And the bot progression from "alter user agent" to "change IP addresses" to providers having to ban whole subnets, whole ASNs, and realizing "proxy SDK monetization" is a thing mirrors threat actor progression from the time before LLMs.
It also has an “online users” counter, which attempted to count real user sessions of unauthenticated user which still maintained a session, which lets them comment, or modify certain filter and display options. It never counted the Google bot.
Over the last few years this counter went from 100-200 users online to thousands. I have been very hands-off with it for many years, doing minor upgrades and backups. However, the site also has gotten quite slow, these sessions were obviously impacting it. So, I finally investigated these crawlers, and yes, it turns out it’s an insane amount of traffic that is entirely artificial, the site has just a handful of real users, and thousands of these crawling sessions that actually try to do everything they can, click every button. It doesn’t help that sort and search were implemented using GET links.
I fixed the counter to exclude the crawlers, but I have a bit of a dilemma. I don’t want to stop the bots from updating their knowledge based on all the content.
The best solution I could find is the new CloudFlare feature where they might charge the crawlers for every request, or otherwise block them. I think that’s a fantastic idea for the internet, at large. I signed up for the beta access, but haven’t heard from them again. I do think it’s unfortunate that this requires CloudFlare and the middleman.
Overall, it seems like the LLM are really straining the internet economy, the openness of it. Email spam used to be the worst, but the organized trillionaire labs sucking up the entire internet is going to break something if we don’t preempt them better.
It’s too bad the copyright and public internet systems are not acting quick enough. And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
I would promote this idea to all of my competitors. Nah mate, you don't have to ask her out right now. You can wait until next week ;)
Anyway, silver linings, looks like we're finally going to get widely adopted infra for microtransactions.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030202042510/http://www.openp2...
Are the AI companies worried about anything but their valuations?
I don’t care about their valuations, but I do care about the risks that they are creating for the economy, society, and the technological advancement, at large.
Micro transactions [in this case] are a great idea, these crawlers need to be taxed and made to pay for the unaccounted external costs. Furthermore, we need to fund any risk mitigations, security coordination, and other safety work. If these things are not imposed on the market, the most ruthless player will create the biggest mess they can get away with.
I don’t see a better way to do this, right now, than to allow Strips, or CF, to create some way to charge the crawlers. Imagine I have some really expensive content, I can put it behind the paywall, or subscription model, but that’s very specific to the human consumer. What if I do want to search engine or content aggregator to consume some of the content? It would be quite hard for me to sign an exclusive agreement with OpenAI, like what Reddit or NYT are doing. It might be quite beneficial to create some infrastructure to let bots automatically to pay for access. It might even be crypto based, I don’t think it really matters. It just has to be easy for me to integrate it, and the bots need to find it easy to use.
If we all start doing this, I think this could be of benefit to all content creators, such as musicians, movie makers, game developers, and even independent journalists.
We used to pay for software and things, but what has happened? Walled gardens and production monopolies are taking over. This has largely reduced the quality of all the content we consume.
Anyway, what’s wrong with making 2 cents? :)
Why not? At this point, any attempt to try to meet the bots halfway is doomed.
More over, I actually pay for three different AI subscriptions, and use them a lot. I also think it’s fair that I pay for their services. I just want them to also pay for what they use.
But I’m seeing requests coming in from random IP addresses from all over the world using randomised user-agents. But somehow these are trying URLs in sequential order. A while ago this would be classed as a DDoS cyber attack.
I feel like it's the same issue that public resources are facing.
Step 1: public resource is freely available
Step 2: asshole shows up, drains the resource completely just because they can
Step 3: either resource is taken away, or it has massive security behind it
We don't even need a new law. What they're doing is already a felony, and there's a process already in place to go to a court and request unmasking of 10000 IP addresses.
they have one of the worst bot detection in the industry. but because everyone uses them, their huge false positive numbers won't show up anywhere.
And Cloudflare is no exception, the "hello world" of bots is Cloudflare bypass.
It makes sense doesn't it? If you own all the pipes, you can effectively block bad actors. But in reality what they do is to just block everyone who blocks advertising tracking and profiling tech (such as canvas fingerprint etc)... and because all vendors use cf, they all block those same clients, and they think there's some winner takes all magic happening with finely tuned blocklists. Don't fall for the marketing!
Try it yourself. Block those fingerprinting tech and try to access their own user forum. you get blocked. Now allow fingerprinting (even if emulated in a headless chrome!) and access by the most toxic vpn you can think off, access granted.
All cloudflare does is act like a gatekeep for monetizable-by-creepy-advertising-networks traffic, not bots. If the bots pay the small headless chrome tax, you get bombarded with their requests just fine.
So you can definitely block by IP, by fingerprint, both or neither
I think the post underestimates just how little thought and effort is put into these bots. I also run a cgit instance with far less interesting projects, and am not spared from the deluge of HTTP requests.
The explanation I could come up with is that they try to crawl all links regardless of how much sense it makes or how much load it causes. cgit being cgit, this means billions of links for all combinations of parameters and hashes. That, or it's a deliberate DDoS attack.
As a tech person who works with tech people, I have become extremely sensitive to this kind of bias. Is this solution actually better? Is the CPU cost actually worse than mildly annoying everyone, or is it a problem being solved because it “offends the senses?”
I’m not leaning towards yes or no for this instance. But I regularly see people jumping to conclusions without measuring. What is the cost of 20% and is that cost worth “mildly annoying” everyone?
The problem is the cost here is paid by a group of volunteers, no? It's objectively reducing capacity for a really important public project by 20%. If you're responsible for keeping a public good like this available, it seems obvious to me to want to prevent this overuse of resources. Only one of the 3 parties involved here is not willing to engage in good faith right now and causing harm. I don't understand a need to try and tolerate them.
Why cannot we turn this whole proof of work thing into an official "help mining $SHITCOIN"? I mean, if they really want the data that badly, at least have them pay the hosting with their CPU/GPU/ASIC cycles.
which is called l402/x402. micropayments' day has come
The author of Anubis hates this fact and will ban you if you mention it, so don't. He insists it's the PoW.
> 33% are now solving the math and getting through to the main site — because apparently what we have to offer is worth spending a ton of cycles to calculate the Anubis challenge.
I just close the website if I see Anubis. Some have it set at reasonable difficulties (like 2)… others have it where I need to wait for like 30 seconds, I'm not wasting 30 seconds of my life for that.
I've been on all three sides (user of RPs, getting paid to run an RP, and trying to block RPs from my site). Residential proxy service is nice. You can scrape anything, even with the dumbest curl command, and only get a Cloudflare block maybe 15% of the time, in which case you just try again. That's less often than I get a cloudflare block from using a privacy browser from a non-proxy address. Cloudflare does not stop bots, it stops humans.
Like, maybe you can't stop the LLM bots, but you can use them as one-off Bitcoin pool mining pool participants. You have to assume that making them find hash values with N leading zeroes has led to finding hash values with more than N leading zeroes. Maybe run a Bitcoin node under there and let each visitor take a couple swings for you with their pickaxes.
It's not really going to help though because the scrapers using residential proxies aren't burning their own compute.
If repos like this were 10%+ of what they crawled, having a special case for clone-able repos would be smart, but if you're crawling everything, you're not going to do an efficiency tweak for each special case that has a more parse-able option.
Thats a good enough explanation in my opinion.
Source: someone who reviews AI generated PR's on a daily basis
This ends up tacitly turning a very legitimate complaint (ill-behaved crawlers) into a justification for head-in-the-sand AI denialism.
If someone else wants to run a public HTML service, let them deal with the bots.
If you really want to offer a web interface, put it behind login. You can apply enough restrictions (captcha, super slow rate limit for new accounts) that it isn't cost effective to generate zillions of logins, and you can monitor logins for bot behavior.
Sucks, but here we are.
Interesting to crawlers is not a narrow scope. We have the same problem on a B2B car wash site.
The crawlers get stuck in a loop requesting the dataset listing page with every. single. combination. of. facets. At essentially as fast as it can be pumped out or blocked.
Had one bot super interested in a single organization to the tune of 1000 r/min for 24+ hours. Realistic rotating user agents, realistic sec-* headers, no ip address seen more than a couple times in 10 minutes. The only commonality was the route.
1) ban TV-proxy-as-a-service - straight up go to every representative there is and start pushing and lobbying and everything to stop spammers from distributing over non-computer devices, especially legally
2) make old commits more expensive to access than new ones. Legit users are not going to access those much, so they can pay the time. I assume diverse (unpredictable?) difficulty can also make spam pulling harder
In every country of the world? I think you might have a significantly easier time convincing Samsung and LG to ban this via their T&C.
If we trusted digital signatures on content instead of server names, we could have a model where a single bit of server load propagates to millions of interested parties. As it is the server must do something distinct for each interested party.
CDNs mitigate this only partially, because mutable data means they have no good cache invalidation strategy.
There's got to be a solution that doesn't involve heaping even more burdensome requirements on those who would dare to publish.
What irony that this article is about crawling content-addressed data.
I'm not sure where IPFS went wrong, but I think our web will continue to degrade until we figure it out. (It'll continue to degrade after that also, but then we can let it burn since we'll have a replacement to switch to).
Distributed scrapers are going to generally try and hit their assigned list of pages; it’s a bigger waste of time if they have to go off to visit other pages first to get the cookie challenge.
Keep in mind that Anubis will rarely inconvenience an actual user who visits the site often; it’s meant to keep out first-time scrapers trying to grab a few pages from their queue.
https://bsky.app/profile/xeiaso.net/post/3muasair5uk2j
Rather than using Anubis to give the client fake work, maybe the way to go would be to get the client to do the real work in JavaScript? Then the server doesn’t have to do it.
Interestingly enough, cgit bills itself as "a hyperfast web frontend for git repositories" [0]. Alas, nothing is fast enough for the bots, it would appear.
[0] https://git.zx2c4.com/cgit/about/
Extensions like ModHeader, BrowserMask do this: https://github.com/apify/crawlee-python
https://github.com/mthcht/Masquerade-Spoofer
Great for AI scrapers, bad for hosters and everyone else.
That’s not an option for the kernel. It’s hard to read the cat-and-mouse account with any hope today. I think the flood abates someday but not sure how it happens.
Reason they interact so poorly is that is that git hosts generate a lot of links. One for each file in each commit, and a diff for each file appearing in a pair of commits. Even a small repo can have millions of viable links, and most of these are stupidly expensive to render for the git host. On top of this crawlers generally don't have a very deep understanding of what they are crawling, and can't meaningfully distinguish computationally expensive requests from cheap ones.
First idea - there should be some cost for sending traffic somewhere. And the server owner also should receive pay - not only the internet provider.
So, in with this idea, the server owner can potentially increase the amount of computing power to satisfy all requests.
So now, because of bad actors, I need to pay for the privilege of watching a website or using a service that was meant to be free? No, thanks.
I don't have a solution, but "break how the web currently works" is not one I would accept all willy nilly.
EDIT: yes, I realize we already broke the web (with Anubis, cloudflare, recaptcha etc) but I think we should resist slowly breaking it further.
First of all - I suppose it should be very cheap. So, real humans will not pay much.
Second - why do u think that websites are meant to be free? They provide some service, so its a rather strange that the internet is so free (in both senses). I think, this freeiness is allowed to greatly speed up popularization. But for me is obvious that it can demand payment for service.
And third - service owner really meant it to be free, I don't see any problems with this in my idea. It can still provide free service.
I'm strongly convinced that these aren't "AI crawlers"; they're just plain DDoSes done by those who have interests in turning the Internet into a dystopian walled garden with "security", and now they have a convenient scapegoat to blame. Don't you find it too coincidental with the rise in identity/age verification and other attempts at silencing free speech on the Internet?
It's widely known there are questions that LLMs can't solve, and once in a while an obvious example appears, so a simple CAPTCHA-like challenge with an HTML-only form would be the logical "defense". Instead there's a huge interest in pushing JS-required proof-of-work (as others have pointed out, these attackers have far more compute than the average user) and remote attestation (there are already providers with huge farms of mobile devices that can defeat this easily).
Things just don't add up.
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you.
Some ISPs ban customers based on a single report there - have fun!
It's ridiculous also how you ban an IP then 1 second later another one picks up from where the first one left on.
I think it's a few bad actors really. Because nobody serious about indexing content will do what these crawlers are doing..
They are consume lots of content that is unoriginal or duplicate or duplicate with minor modifications.
Not sure how to block, but maybe a little bit of law enforcement could dramatically reduce the number of TVs being used a proxies.
That's bad for static content.
Try adding search, with pagination and 16 filters that can toggled on off. And 1000 tags, give each page 5.
IMHO if I visit your website and it intentionally starts wasting my electricity for no other reason than to cost me money, with no opt in, it's hostile and malicious.
https://kreepykrauly.co.za/about-us/
We’re talking about privacy-preserving proof of age, but as we see here the real utility of such a system will be proof of humanity.
How do you ensure it includes every human?
How do you ensure it doesn’t include every non-human?
I’m not even asking about computation or algorithms. I straight up don’t think you can make a definition that isn’t a tautology or an approximation. Both of which are useful, but neither of which can fit a _proof_.
I want to take my existing national digital ID and use it online basically. BUT I don’t want the websites to know it’s me. Just that I’m human (or perhaps over a certain age). And I don’t want the ID issuer to know what site/service asked whether I’m a human or I’m 18 etc.
Let's say that 95% of individual humans can pass it and only 2% of bots. For someone maintaining a website, who has to decide between using this system and shutting down their site because of the increased costs, that may very well be good enough
If these crawlers are so smart, why aren't they following the rel="alternate" which is provided explicitly for them?
Is that really the case? It was my understanding that LLM-based agents were explicitly allowed as long as their users follow certain guidelines [1]?
And more generally: Somehow the theory of "essentially all bot traffic is AI labs crawling the Internet for LLM training data" doesn't make sense to me at all. There are at best dozens of labs capable of running their own crawl at Internet scale, but hundreds of millions of people using LLMs to answer their questions. (If my personal LLM usage is any indication, firing off dozens or hundreds of web fetches to answer a single question is not unusual.)
While I understand that many existing projects have been resourced only for human readers and might as a result be struggling due to this, this characterization sounds a bit dishonest to me.
And unfortunately, for this use case (i.e. ephemeral queries in a context possibly lacking storage or git access), forking the individual repo to answer a handful of string match queries against it might just be more expensive than to run that query against a web search index and then just fetch those results over HTTP.
The solution would accordingly also look very different, as caching at the inference layer is significantly harder than at the training one (where it's most likely already widely done as that seems like a no-brainer).
[1] https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html
For some reason, like with fraud via email, text, and phone, we don't do anything about it. All this brazen crime and government does nothing; we don't even imagine government doing anything.
You have the power, and should exercise it, to rate limit bad actors
Learn how to cache your application and your cpu usage should be almost zero. In fact basically any read should cost nothing in comparison to writes.
> Us PHP developers
I can tell.
Then again there is the conspiracy theory about cloudflare sponsoring the scrapers
Also, many plotting libraries include an xkcd style these days:
https://matplotlib.org/stable/api/_as_gen/matplotlib.pyplot....
And libraries for various languages:
https://github.com/timqian/chart.xkcd
So if you have a preferred dev environment there's probably a way to set it to xkcd style.
This seems fine to me. It would be a better world if we could have anonymous bulk data access. But if aggressive scrapers are bloating host costs, I’m fine with logging in.
Now, the flip side is that ONCE logged in, I want my bulk access. The worst of all worlds with when you demand authentication and then STILL block bulk access.
Case in point, I want to automatically download my Amazon and Target order records. This is easy to automate with playwright or whatever, but authentication stays annoying. My sessions expire quickly and I have to re-auth all the time. There should be an API to pull this data down.
TIL shallow clones are expensive. That's wild to me. It's supposed to be cheaper!
(I'll note that while these are generally attributed to AI data gathering because of the timing of when they took off, it's not actually obvious who's running these bots. The big players all have crawlers that identify themselves and are reasonably well behaved, but I don't know if anyone has managed to positively attribute these other ones to any particular group)
This is fascinating to me. It's a large enough phenomenon that it's affecting the entire Internet and yet nobody seems to know yet who's actually doing it. Which isn't surprising, of course, it's hard to trace back to a source through all these proxies and it's probably a bunch of distinct groups anyways, but still!
Personally I have to wonder how much of it is "scrapers for training data" vs just tool-use LLMs. Even if you use chatgpt in thinking mode you can clearly see it searching and visiting a bunch of different websites to answer a question, presumably faster than any human would. That's got to add up. It's got me wondering why everyone seemingly discounts that as an option
GPTBot → model improvement / training crawl
OAI-SearchBot → search index / ChatGPT Search
ChatGPT-User → fetch initiated by a user's ChatGPT interaction
OAI-AdsBot → advertising landing-page crawl
(No second chances, I blocked their whole IP range.)
I feel like I'm at work.
We had some web crawler using Selenium to make queries and scrape the data instead of just downloading the whole file.
Every day it seems like we have some people that know just enough to be dangerous creating things like that. And then of course it's our fault that things are slow, or we won't give them infinite system resources, etc
(Each new tab is isolated, unless opening a link in a new tab. Same as Safari in private mode)
Barring that, I think the solution is to charge money for access. Require users to sign up to render HTML, and provide a form of payment (any form you want). The cost is, say, $0.1 per GB. Rate limit all requests to reduce CPU. For the average user this will cost a few cents. For the bots you'll cover your costs and have a rate limiter to keep your system from being overwhelmed. Or they can git clone for free with no limit.
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you. You just needlessly ballooned your firewall ruleset by adding IPs that would never be back.
Without something like cookies (which are almost certainly tossed after the IP is rotated) or some other persistent identifier, you are stuck have to apply mitigations that scale with the load you're encountering, which means longer challenges for everyone or degraded functionality, like removing some of the fancier cgit features.
dont click next link because he will show a nutsack image if the referrer contains hackernews. love the guy.
www.jwz.org/blog/2025/01/exterminate-all-rational-ai-scrapers/
basically, instead of blocking, he just poison it. and if a human sees it, it takes less effort to ignore the nonsense than it takes your pocket computer to deal with proof of work.
Using shared ip banlists is the best solution so far, like cloudflare. Sure maybe they hit your server for 5 seconds and then desist, but they'll attack someone else, and they'll eventually rotate.
I'm not sure if Anubis has a feature for centralized banlists, but I'm assuming since it's OS and privacy oriented, there isn't.
There's a tradeoff between privacy and abuse, you want privacy? You get abuse, you want to battle abuse? Gotta sacrifice privacy. Worth noting that unmarked vpn users (residential proxy or residential vpn users) use these proxies for privacy, and therefore give a reasonable alibi to abusers.
Is it foolish of me to have expected more from a blog post on kernel.org?
The predicted consequences have now had time to manifest, and have not done so. This makes the claim either false or overstated. Perhaps there will be issues in the future, but to date there have been many claims that AI development will stall (for a variety of reasons). If they were the critical weaknesses they have been portrayed as, models would not have advanced to the level they are today.
If you have a hypothesis, make a clear prediction based upon it. If you start pushing the date forward after each failed prediction, you end up looking like a hapless doomsday cult. If your hypothesis is correct however, your prediction should actually happen. Then provided you have not made so many predictions to get one right by chance, people will take what you have to say seriously.
But if bots a crawling diffs between all possible commits it's crazy.
CDN will do nothing, because it's new urls each time. You can maybe find a CDN provider that block bots.
“[…]because we can generate 1.2 METRIC BAJILLION valid URLs just for a single fork of linux.git.”
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".